The ‘small print’ of working with powerful myths and archetypes (transcript)

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Episode Transcript:

Lian (01:27)

What if working with archetypes came with fine print that we've forgotten to read? Hello, my beautiful souls and a huge warm welcome back. This week's show is with the wonderful Caitlin Matthews. Caitlin is a now many-time past guest. In fact, we could perhaps even call her a regular and she's certainly a listener favourite. Caitlin is an internationally renowned author and a teacher of shamanic training programs.

In this conversation, Caitlin and I explore the very real, but mostly forgotten small print of working with myth and archetypes. We touch on the older meaning of myth as something that never happened and yet is always happening. The danger of lifting archetypes out of their living stories and the cost when we claim what is not ours.

We also look at what actually helps context, reciprocity and clear human boundaries. So listen, if you've ever felt the call of a God or goddess and wondered how to answer it whilst keeping both your wonder and your wits. And before we jump into all of that good stuff.

First, it's time for your weekly omen from the algorithmic oracles. Athena says subscribe and each week clear bright wisdom flies straight into your feed like an owl at dusk. Best subscribe. And if you're struggling with the challenges of walking your soul path in this crazy modern world and we benefit from guidance, kinship and support, come join Unio, the community for wild sovereign souls.

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We meet twice each month in our community guidance circles. So Jonathan and I can meet you exactly where you are and with whatever challenges you're experiencing. And I really do mean whatever challenge you're experiencing. Sometimes that can be about business, sometimes it's relationships, sometimes it's your spiritual path. I mean, really is everything.

and we'll guide you to meet the material for liberation your soul is calling you to so you may become truly free, living the life your heart longs for. You can discover more and walk with us by hopping on over to BeMythical.com/unio or click the link in the description. And now back to this week's episode, let's dive in.

Lian (03:55)

Hello Caitlin, a huge warm welcome back.

Caitlin Matthews (04:00)

Hi there, Lian it's great. It's like having a pen friend. I remember those days.

Lian (04:09)

One of our clients has got an actual pen friend and I find it such a lovely nostalgic idea so I'm very happy to be your pen pal!

Caitlin Matthews (04:13)

Yes.

No, I think it's lovely. But you know, because I remember in the old days, you know, I had a pen friend and I think she was in Trieste in Italy. And I'd have to think, you know, I'd sometimes just write to her and then something I've got to have written to her for a long time, then I have to think up something to talk about. So I'd have to write like an essay on something. So this is much nicer than that.

Lian (04:39)

Yes, well, again, I am honoured to be that to you. ⁓ We have got to talking about kind of thinking of something to write about. We've got something really wonderful to talk about, which I was just saying to you, although we've done a cornucopia of episodes on the topic of myths and archetypes over the years on this show.

I'm not sure we've ever focused directly on the, I guess, what you call the small print. You know, when you buy a car and sign a contract, there's some small print that goes with it. And those pitfalls, shadows, things to be aware of. And so that's what we're going to focus on today, which we're really looking forward to. But first, I think.

in case someone hasn't caught all of those episodes about myths and archetypes, I'm sure I'll make sure that I will kind of include some links to those in the show notes. But let's start by defining what do we mean when we talk about this idea of working with myths and archetypes? What does that mean to you?

Caitlin Matthews (05:35)

Okay, yes, it'll be just in case.

Yeah.

Okay, so I mean, first of all, I suppose we have to define myth itself, which is, is a very difficult word in our language now, because it's come to mean something that completely doesn't isn't real, or is a lie. mean, in the, you know, the good old newspaper headline, you know, the myth of blood testing or whatever, you know, and

Lian (06:07)

Mmm.

Caitlin Matthews (06:21)

Of course, it means the reverse of that. means the truest thing that ever was or in the, you know, the definition of Celestius, who was ⁓ a philosopher who was living in the fourth century. He was given a very specific job because Christianity had started to be introduced and then the Emperor Julian came ⁓ to be emperor and He wanted to rev, let's just go back to what we used to do, please. And Celestius job was to explain the gods to people, which was just before they forgot what that was. And, and he sort of said about myth, said myth is something that has never happened and is happening all the time. Which I think is a great definition because it really.

Lian (07:13)

Mmm.

Caitlin Matthews (07:16)

it does describe that whatever the story is ⁓ of divine happenings, of things that spirits did ⁓ or ancestors or whatever, that the memory of it is enshrined in the myth and that is what people remember. But that myth is not just happening back in time or in some otherworldly

place, it's actually a record of our interactions with God, spirits, ancestors. ⁓ And the whole world around us as it is, because of course, the recurrence of myth is something we see all the time. I mean,

Lian (07:47)

you

⁓ And the world around us, the living world around us.

Caitlin Matthews (08:00)

draw parallels between what's happening in the news right now and things that have happened in our history, but also this kind of a mythic-ness to them and

Lian (08:07)

Mm.

Caitlin Matthews (08:12)

you can see people sort of stepping into older footprints in order to bring about similar things yet again. So ⁓ it's kind of, it's going to happen whatever we do or not, but the way we engaged with ⁓ myth in times past and now I think is really very important. And I sort of looked at the ancients a little bit in order for today because I think that

Lian (08:20)

Mmm.

Caitlin Matthews (08:42)

have some good things to say about that so I'll bring up a couple of things but

I think that the way that people work with myth now is very different ⁓ because we now don't have a sense of the sacred in the same way and so now we just talk about archetypes by which we usually mean psychological archetypes although of course something which is archetypal

Lian (09:00)

Mm.

Caitlin Matthews (09:09)

The word arcade tells us what it is. It's something from sacred zones. It's not everyday stuff. So, you know, I mean, in this household, we deal a lot with the myth of Arthur, for example, because the Arthurian legends are very much part of our have been part of our study in this house. so

Lian (09:18)

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Caitlin Matthews (09:32)

and yesterday my husband had to explain a whole bunch of them to people.

of very different sort of capabilities and understandings to see what, you know, what that meant. And it's what people can remember is very interesting. Yes, on on that. it's like they were astounded at the range of the stories and myths because ⁓ but they they knew a few of them. Yes. So they had a few kernels of the knots, but they and a few shells as well. But.

Lian (09:46)

Mmm, what stands out to them? yeah. Mmm. Mmm.

Hmm.

Caitlin Matthews (10:03)

in some areas, they didn't have the meat of the whole thing. I suppose that myth is something that has never happened and is always happening, is, I think, a good way of thinking about this. And so if it's going to be happening again, we need to be very careful how we work with it. Yes, because it won't just kind of come through like a movie that we watch. It will actually...

Lian (10:07)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Yes.

Caitlin Matthews (10:32)

affect your life. ⁓

Lian (10:34)

Yes, my goodness.

There's so much that I want to dive into what you've just said and I'm recognising. ⁓

How can I put this? We could end up doing the whole show without even getting into the small print because there's just so much here. who knows whether there will have to be two parts to this. Let's see. But I love everything you've said there. ⁓ the quote you mentioned, I think, has been kind of reworked, repeated by figures. More recently, Joseph Campbell said something very similar, something like

Caitlin Matthews (10:53)

Yep.

we could indeed. ⁓

Lian (11:17)

myth never happened and it's always happening. yes, I don't know if he, did he know he was when he was quoting him or is your-

Caitlin Matthews (11:20)

He was quoting Celestius. Yeah.

Well, it's very difficult with Joseph Campbell because, you know, when he wrote, you know, his great long myth series, ⁓ he had read up on all those myths and then he went out into a more rural place and then wrote everything up. So he didn't recheck everything. And so one always has to be aware of that when reading Campbell, that it's what he could remember. It isn't necessarily an exact quote sometimes or an exact piece of mythology that

Lian (11:32)

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Caitlin Matthews (11:55)

we know that someone told the tale of. So I think one must be careful. Always go back to source where you can always with countenance. Yes, as much as you can. But you can also triangulate. There are lot of, for example, lots of classical writers who wrote about things and they had different views of that. But that's a much more rounded view than just one person's telling.

Lian (11:58)

Hmm.

Yes. Well, as much as we can, because yeah, sometimes the source itself is a retelling, but yes. Mm.

Yeah. Triangulate's a lovely way of saying it. ⁓

Caitlin Matthews (12:29)

Yes, I think that's... Don't just take WikiSource as your full source, yes.

Lian (12:35)

Yes, yeah, for sure. And it's interesting as you say the way that our modern use of the word myth is only using that first part of it's like a myth is something that never happened and we stop there and we we've lost the full meaning of it. Touching more deeply on archetypes, because what I noticed

Caitlin Matthews (12:51)

Mm. Yeah.

Lian (13:03)

has happened in our more modern, and I think it's a wonderful thing the way we've kind of reclaimed this connection with the archetypes, popularized probably mainly by Jung.

But often it's like we've kind of like pulled the archetypes out of myths and sort of left the roots of the archetypes in the myths but not realised we've done it and then just kind of, that's fine, I've got the archetype now, I can kind of...

Caitlin Matthews (13:30)

Mm-hmm.

Lian (13:31)

Work directly with the archetype without really understanding the soil that it came from. And so I'd love to hear your sense of that because that seems to me quite like a shadow in itself actually, but a real modern phenomena where we're not working, thinking we're working with the archetype, not recognising we can't really because it belongs with its myth.

Caitlin Matthews (13:37)

into each other.

Yeah.

I know.

No, no. But I mean, it's, mean, if we take a different model, we can just say, you you know, people won't destroy the Amazon rainforest because there might be plants and trees that are really beneficial to your health, which is kind of a horrible view of, you know, of things. But, people use all plants that way. Yes, mostly, you know, they only want the benefit. They don't want to cultivate the plant or get to know it.

Lian (14:13)

Hmm, yes.

Caitlin Matthews (14:20)

or hear what it might say to them. ⁓ So that we're in a similar situation here. But context is everything, isn't it? Absolutely everything. How can we understand things without context? ⁓ And I'm remembering

Lian (14:21)

Mmm.

Yes, with plants themselves, yes.

Caitlin Matthews (14:38)

a Scottish song which is about whaling and it's sort of ⁓ my lady, she wears the red rose.

Does she think of the sailor and where he goes? And it's like, you know, because he's going out to hunt the sperm whale in order to bring back, you know, the ingredient to make perfume. And it's like, no, we don't. just we just think, that perfume is fantastic. And I know we have similar problems with frankincense right now, you know, because the frankincense tree can't give that much incense to us. So.

Lian (15:02)

Mmm.

Yes.

Hmm.

Caitlin Matthews (15:16)

So yes, I think this is exactly the same. ⁓ It's like, what is the context? What is the seedbed of the myth? What do you know of how people responded to that? How did they take that into them? How did it affect them? Because that tells us a lot more about how things were. ⁓ And if we go back to most myths are the founding ⁓

Lian (15:38)

Mm-mm.

Caitlin Matthews (15:47)

story of a people and of their origin. so unless we understand them in that context and understand what the sacred relationship was with that, how can we work with it? I just don't understand that. And it's something that we've lost as a result of, you know, the coming of Christianity, because we just you know, everything became homogenized. So it was like all the temples shut. Everybody stopped going to temples. It's like, what did they do at temples? Do we know what they did? Yes, we do to some extent and how people were with things. but, you know, the ancient world was much more like Hinduism is today, that people in, you know, who are Hindu can regard themselves as Hindu, whether they

Lian (16:17)

Hmm

Caitlin Matthews (16:42)

rest under a tree and that's the whole of their world for them as a sadhu or do they believe in the tree murti and all the gods and goddesses and so on and so on but they'll always have a favourite yeah and so i think that was the same in the ancient world and even people like sort of Plato whom we think of as sort of just doing philosophy and talking a lot with other people

Lian (16:57)

Hmm.

Caitlin Matthews (17:10)

like, well, yes, but he also went to temple Socrates went to temples and he would often, you know, be in a state of bliss because today was the day of Apollo or whatever, or that he wanted to honour the goddess by going down to the harbour, we read all these things in Plato. And so, yeah, whatever people were doing, they were doing that, too, they were going to temple and they knew that they, they went to temple to be

Lian (17:35)

Mmmmm

Caitlin Matthews (17:40)

in a good relationship with the divinities that they did and they would stop and if they were in the countryside stop and rest and honour the fawns of the place so the the the beings that we can't see but that inhabit a sacred place so whether it's a group of trees or ⁓ a pool or a tree or whatever so I think you know those are those are things that were part of of ancient worship and they're different from place to place of course. ⁓ But they did have they left us some very good records before everything went down they did say some great things to us about those. The Plato says no over every herd of living creatures throughout all the tribes there is set a heavenly daimon to be its shepherd. By daimon they mean a spirit, a sacred spirit. So very often people did have a divine ancestor that they referred to and that divine ancestor would have been under the aegis of a particular divinity and we know this, I mean it's a wonderful thing. This is from the Kori Cosmu text which was

Lian (18:35)

Mmm.

Caitlin Matthews (19:01)

a hermetic text written in Egypt in the Hellenic period and probably in Alexandria. And it's a conversation between Isis and Horus. And they're talking about, so how do people get souls? And you know, what happens when Isis is explaining, you know, on what kind of, what your daimon or your sort of ministering genii or angel or whatever, whatever is appointed to you, that

If that's ⁓ a warlike ⁓ character, then it will be interested in war. ⁓ If the guardian angels are of a gentle order, then the soul follows its way in peace. And if they're friends of judgment, then the soul will be good at judging. And if they're musicians, then the soul will sing. And if they love truth, they'll be a philosopher and so on. And so it's like the soul is also in a...

Lian (19:48)

Mmm.

Caitlin Matthews (19:59)

state of immersion within that divinity and so understands about it, which is a wonderful explanation, I think, for us, because, of course, everyone living has something that, as a child, really called out to them in a book. There was one divinity or one hero or heroine or whomever, and they just thought, wow, I have to read everything about this in the same way that we kind of have a favourite colour or

Lian (20:15)

Mmm.

Caitlin Matthews (20:29)

kind of music or whatever. We want to follow that. We want to have it around us. And so I think this is a good way of beginning because it's not so much that we seek out the divinity or the archetype. It's like they've already sought out us. ⁓ And you'll find other people like you who are in the same club, you know.

Lian (20:48)

⁓ yes, ⁓ my gosh, I love that so much. ⁓

Yes, yes,

of course. It's, there's a couple of ⁓ points I want to touch on from what you've just said. What you just said there, I think is fabulous and it brings to mind astrology. And whether or not one, I guess, believes or follows astrology, really to some extent, that was the ancients understanding of what you're saying here is like those gods and goddesses of the celestial realm were already kind of choosing us and speaking to us before we came into this world and started to kind of have our own ideas about it. And I think that's and again, that relationship to I'm trying to say this in a way that it's not like we all need to

Caitlin Matthews (21:36)

Yes.

Lian (21:51)

become interested in astrology. I personally am very interested in astrology, but I'm not saying that we need to, but there's something about recognising that and that kind of, as you say, we're kind of like cooking in the energy of those archetypal beings, want a better word, that I think astrology does kind of bring us back present to, that is part of what we've lost connection with.

Caitlin Matthews (21:53)

Yeah, yeah.

Lian (22:18)

The other thing that really stood out to me was what you saying there about temples. And I had a experience over the summer where we went to Rhodes, the Greek island for a week. And as part of it, we went to a place called Lindos and there's this kind of ancient hill that's quite a big hill. So it felt more like a mountain when we were climbing it.

Caitlin Matthews (22:30)

Yes.

Yeah.

Lian (22:45)

I didn't know much about it. My husband had sort of planned that we were going to go there and I hadn't really taken huge amounts of notice of what was actually at the top of this mountain. I had some idea and it wasn't until I got to the top I realised that there was also, there was other things, but there was also an ancient temple of Athena. And I've never had this connection with Athena. I have other...

Caitlin Matthews (22:54)

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Lian (23:14)

Greek goddesses that I've had more of a connection to and I haven't particularly had that with Athena until finding myself spontaneously at her temple and my goodness, I don't really have words for how powerful that was and I think again that context of being on top of this hill overlooking the the sea

Caitlin Matthews (23:21)

Yeah. Yes.

Yeah.

Lian (23:41)

The just the power of the place, the beauty of this temple and it gave me this taste of Athena that I have never had before.

Caitlin Matthews (23:51)

Yeah, yeah. But I mean, Athena is the, you know, primarily in the Greek world. I mean, she's not just the, you know, the supreme goddess of Athens, but ⁓ but she is the one who ⁓ looks after cities, the civilizing arts and crafts, all of those things. ⁓ But she can also be a goddess of war, which is quite interesting because Britain's, you know,

Lian (24:16)

Mmm.

Caitlin Matthews (24:20)

the whole thing of Britannia goes right the way back to ⁓ the tribe of the Brigantes, you know, the whole sense of, you know, we understand that a lot of the places where Rome came, that they, you know, the augurs were sent in first. before the army and they were sent in to say hello spirit of the land whatever you're called we the roman people would like to do x y and z and so on and we on our half will be doing these things for you yes and so help us a lot here so and then they sent the troops yes so but they did recognise very many places in ⁓ in britain as being like minerva

Lian (24:57)

Mmm.

Caitlin Matthews (25:10)

who is of course the Roman Athena.

Lian (25:10)

Mmm.

Caitlin Matthews (25:13)

But even within Plato, he talks about Athena being one goddess that we know about who has these civilizing craft and arts things and war. And then he talks about Egypt and says, you know, and there's this other goddess who does precisely the same. And he sort of draws comparisons between them. it's like the core sign's the same. Yes, it's like the colour red is the colour red in every language. We call it differently, but we all recognise red. Yes. Well, there are some colours that we don't recognise in certain languages and countries anciently, because people, most people didn't have proper words that we would consider proper words for blue and green.

Lian (25:43)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Mm.

Mmm.

Caitlin Matthews (26:10)

they have sort of confusion words like we have in this country. So I think that sort of the understanding that when you're at a place, it just comes out of the ground at you. So you know that place belongs to that divinity.

Lian (26:21)

Mmm, yes.

Hmm, yes, very much so. So before we go deeper into those shadows, pitfalls, small print, I'd love to touch a little bit more on why might we want to reclaim that relationship to myth and archetype. Again, going back to that, that working with myth and archetype, we've talked a bit about kind of what they are.

Caitlin Matthews (26:35)

Yeah.

Lian (26:56)

And certainly from my perspective, it has been some of the most deep, powerful, transformative, meaningful work of my life to really feel them come alive in me. As you said earlier, you know, these things aren't just what we watch in a film. They change our lives. I'd love to hear your sense of either personal examples or that with ⁓ students. Yeah, where you've seen these have these incredibly

Caitlin Matthews (27:07)

Yeah.

Mmm. Yeah. Absolutely. So sweet. Yeah. Yeah, indeed. Yeah.

Lian (27:26)

powerful blessing ⁓ actions upon us when we engage with them consciously.

Caitlin Matthews (27:32)

totally. And, ⁓ you know, I can give a very specific example. mean, I've always been very keen on Rhiannon ⁓ and Epona, so the horse goddess, ⁓ who is kind of really an Indo-European call sign because there's a lot of places that have this ⁓ and it's very recognisable. ⁓ And that particular story, which, of course, comes in the...

It's in the stream of stories that we recognise are called The Patient Wife. I mean, like Chaucer's, I'm ⁓ going to forget the title of the thing, but the Patient Griselda story is from the same zone. ⁓ And so that always meant a lot to me. And of course, part of that story ⁓ is about she finally gives birth to a child on the very same night that she gives birth to it.

the child is taken from beside her by an unknown agency. And then all the midwives come into the room and think, my God, the baby's not here. We're going to get the chop. And so they go and kill a puppy and they sprinkle its bones around her body and smear her mouth with blood. then, of course, she's eaten her own child. We couldn't stop her. It's the story they tell against her.

And then of course she's made to do her husband won't kill her, but he judges that that she shall have to stand at the mounting block, which is where people come in to the dwelling place and dismount. And then she has to say, before you go in, I just have to tell you about myself and the story about myself. So she is forced to tell this completely untrue story and then offer to bear people in the rest of the building on her back. So that's the sort of the bit you need to know about this. But years ago when I was very ill, I mean was between the ages of 20 and 28, I was really seriously ⁓ not well and in order to earn a living I went to the the labour exchange and they said yes yes you need to just ⁓ go and work in the library. I said well don't I am

I'm trained for the theatre, I can't be doing that, you let me do a cleaning job. You're not well enough to do a cleaning job, you have to go and do. So I went there. I was also in a very unfortunate marriage and ⁓ and of course my illness was was really bad. And of course I needed a toilet a lot of times, so it's very often very late into work. ⁓ And again, I was always being dragged in and sort of stories were told against me, you know, which was if you don't do X and Y. then you know, we'll just have to sack you. And my husband was also very, he was a drunkard to be, you know, to make no sort of bones about it. And he was playing up and coming in and being, you know, very annoying. And so I had that sort of, you had that sort of terrible pressure of an illness and my workplace not supporting me. And they said, the next time he comes in, because I'd separated from him, we will just tell him where you live.

Lian (30:43)

Mmm.

Caitlin Matthews (30:53)

So it's just a boring situation. And so one day I was in late, I was pulled into the office again, I was given a right hold of telling off. And I was so upset, I ran out and I sat on the back door of the library, which is where people came in. And of course, I sat there and I was weeping. And then all of these other late people started to come in. And I was suddenly sort of everything kind of went, like this and was like the two realities merge and it was like suddenly the myth was there it's like there i am sitting ⁓ at the the back door and of course people are sort of saying you know are you all right you know wanting me to tell my story and of course you know was crying too much but of course then I realised that of course they were coming in over my back just like my god it was kind of suddenly it was like this is where you don't take the archetype any

Lian (31:26)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Caitlin Matthews (31:52)

Yes, this is where you put, but it was like suddenly, you know, the knowledge of that myth and the closeness ⁓ of the horse goddess to me was very, very finely tuned. So it was just that moment of complete fusion of my life and her life, ⁓ which is not one that, you know, one wishes to completely endorse.

Lian (31:53)

Yes.

Yes.

Caitlin Matthews (32:20)

and go into, but of course, ⁓ those are moments when you know that the The connection is true, Yeah, it's the not taking it further that we have to be careful about because ⁓ there are things within our own ⁓ character and personality, ⁓ which of course will always predispose us to one or other of the archetypes.

Lian (32:28)

Mmm. Yes. Mmm.

Caitlin Matthews (32:50)

But the living out of the archetype is not necessarily ⁓ a good thing. When it comes to a spiritual vocation, that can sometimes be of a different order because then people are seriously dedicated to that divinity that they've been chosen by. yes, so things like the imitation of Christ is what is expected of people who go into monasteries, for example. But in everyday life,

Lian (33:05)

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Caitlin Matthews (33:20)

we need to be very clear about who is what and that we don't get that sort of a psychological overlap with divinity Yes.

Lian (33:30)

Hmm. Yes. I mean, it certainly brings to mind that classic Jung quote, until we make the unconscious conscious, it will come our lives and we will call it fate. And that's a great example of that, isn't it? was your, that the myth allowed you to make that conscious. And that allowed you, from what I understand of your story, to choose differently, to have that kind of

Caitlin Matthews (33:42)

Absolutely, yeah.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, well, I mean, I began to get better after that period, but it was a it was a very embattled period when it was like, how can you know, how can I ever go, you know, how can anything ever be better? How can anything ever come right? And it took a few more years for that to happen, but it did. But it was the working through of that. But I've seen a lot of people go to that point and then

Lian (34:01)

Mmm. Mmm.

Caitlin Matthews (34:26)

be unable to go beyond it, it becomes the be all and end all of their life. ⁓ those complete identifications with archetypes ⁓ are very murky ⁓ when people are living daily lives because they also spill into other people's lives and into their children's lives and so on. So ⁓ I think, you know, looking at the small print on the

Lian (34:29)

Mmm.

Yes. ⁓

Mmm.

Caitlin Matthews (34:54)

What is it that connects us to a particular divinity or archetype? We really do need to ⁓ understand that first, because the small print on the contract is not about, ⁓ you know, it's not about anything other than what I will give and what you will give. That's the whole part of any contract is that.

Lian (35:19)

Mm-hmm.

Caitlin Matthews (35:23)

I will do this, I undertake to pay you on time, you know, for the car or whatever. ⁓ And if I default, then X will happen and they will reclaim money some other way and so on. They'll send the bailiffs around. So we need to understand all contracts, whether it's with our personal spirits, whether it's with a divinity or an ancestor. It's like we really need to understand.

Lian (35:43)

Mmm. ⁓

Caitlin Matthews (35:51)

what I do to keep this ⁓ relationship healthy and what you do.

Lian (35:58)

Yes, it's,

Caitlin Matthews (36:00)

But no one asked, no one does that,

no one does that. And that's where the problems lie.

Lian (36:06)

Hmm. It's

As we've, as we've lost that connection with working consciously with myths and archetypes, we've misunderstood, even though we're starting to reclaim that, we don't understand culturally how potent they actually are. And so it's like we've lost the, we've lost the understanding of how to work with them, which we're starting to reclaim, but we're not really seeing the true power.

Caitlin Matthews (36:23)

Yeah.

Yes.

Lian (36:38)

It brings to mind, I think I mentioned when we spoke last, I'm currently training with a traditional Mongolian shaman. And there's so much in those teachings of that awareness of, you know, what you're getting yourself into, those contracts of, as you say, you know, what you're going to give and take. And it's

Caitlin Matthews (36:46)

Yes.

Exactly.

Lian (37:03)

wouldn't make sense at all from what I understand to a Mongolian charm and to just like enter into a relationship with a spirit blindly without understanding who it is, what this is going to ask of me, what this is going to cost me. And yet we are constantly making those choices innocently, unconsciously, in the way that we engage with archetypes. so one of the

Caitlin Matthews (37:12)

No, no.

Yeah. Yeah.

Lian (37:32)

think this may have actually been the reason we said that we would have this conversation we touched upon in our last conversation, the ways that we can, it's almost the flip side of the story that you just told, where we can be kind of like a bit like enamored with this, you know, the glamour of a particular archetype and, ⁓ you know, proclaim I am the reincarnation of I don't know, Mary Magdalene or something. Yes.

Caitlin Matthews (37:36)

Yes.

Yes.

Yes. Whatever. Yes.

Lian (38:02)

And

I think any of us that have been in spiritual circles for any amount of time would have had experiences of people saying things of that nature, believing in things of that nature. So I'd love to hear your sense as to, I guess, what the potential cost is of falling into that kind of fantasy, but also perhaps how we might recognise that

Caitlin Matthews (38:12)

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Lian (38:31)

in ourselves or in others that we are kind of in some sort of guidance capacity with, you know, with their teacher or guide or whatever.

Caitlin Matthews (38:41)

Yes, indeed. But I mean, I think, I mean, first of all, I mean, this applies to all relationships. I'll just say that the small print is not just in, you know, divine and archetypal relationships, but in everyday relationships. And, and again, you know, I used to be able to say things, well, of course, we don't just jump into bed with X or Y. And of course, people do now, you know, but I mean, usually, if you're going to have a lasting relationship with someone, then

Lian (38:52)

Hmm

Hehehehehe

Caitlin Matthews (39:10)

You know, you do a few things together, you know, you go to the cafe and have coffee with them. You know, you go to the cinema, you go to an exhibition, whatever it is you do, you go to the sports match together. But then gradually, you know, friendship begins and friendship is, of course, you know, the basis of everything, because that's where trust enters in. And so we do that with human beings. So, you know, how come we can't do it elsewhere?

Lian (39:20)

Mm.

Caitlin Matthews (39:39)

So, you know, how do we, you know, how do we do that ⁓ with divinities? You know, we just have to be ⁓ very careful because the archetype, the divinity is big. I mean, this is like really big. It's as different from the Hums of Pooh as his grand opera. know, it's big music. ⁓ It's music that seizes you, you know. ⁓

Lian (40:01)

Hehehehehe

Mmm.

Caitlin Matthews (40:07)

if I can sort of put it that way, so I sort of see things musically. ⁓

Lian (40:12)

Talk about music

before I forget. ⁓ It was such a pleasure to hear you sing and talk about small print. think anytime you come back on the show, think part of the small print with like you're always going to have to sing now at some point during the episode.

Caitlin Matthews (40:25)

yeah, no, can always do that. That's never a problem. sing everywhere all the time

and no one's ever been able to stop me. Including my poor parents. ⁓ But yes, but I think that the thing is that when the archetype is strong, as it is, that it can easily overcome you if you don't have your good human boundaries.

Lian (40:47)

Mmm.

Caitlin Matthews (40:49)

So I know that I'm a human being. ⁓ I also ⁓

you know, know ⁓ the horse goddess very well, yes, and we have, I hope, a good relationship. And I also allow, I know who she is, and I also, ⁓ she comes into me when I do shamanic work, which is fine, which is a co-consensual thing, But when that occasion is done, when that piece of healing is done, she leaves and I'm left behind, right? So it's very clear in the same way that I know what is my eye, I know what is a piece of grit and you know, I know the difference between something I'm seeing and something that's coming to my eye. So it's like we use our discrimination and clarity.

Lian (41:26)

Mm-hmm.

Caitlin Matthews (41:52)

with this work so that, you know, that I don't, I'm not then going to go off and swan around as the horse goddess in the full view of everyone. I'm not going to go to the supermarket and say, I demand this whole tranche of cheeses be delivered to my house, you know, in a audacity way, which is like, no, I don't do that. ⁓ However, unfortunately, we all know people to whom that has happened, that they've got too close to the archetype.

Lian (42:06)

You

You

Caitlin Matthews (42:20)

without having the discrimination, without having the care and attention and respect that which is really should be there. And they think they've become them, which is delusional. But it's like if you open the door to something and it will come. Did I tell the story of the goddess Rangda last time? No, OK, this was a client I had many years ago.

Lian (42:36)

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

don't think so.

Caitlin Matthews (42:48)

and she was one of those kind of quite new agey people who kind of went ⁓ flowers how wonderful ⁓ birds you sing so beautifully Rangda I love you and it's like no that was not a good thing to do because the goddess Rangda is the goddess of plague and she brings death which is exactly what happened to ⁓ one of this one of this woman's children which was you know just appalling an absolutely appalling thing to have to have happened

Lian (43:11)

my gosh.

Caitlin Matthews (43:18)

So, you know, so we need to be careful. The ancient Greeks called this hubris, which means it means taking on the powers and challenging the gods and the spirits and the ancestors power in such a way ⁓ that you really put their noses out of joint.

Lian (43:24)

Hmm. ⁓

Is that literally

the original meaning of that word?

Caitlin Matthews (43:46)

Yes hubris

is hubris is having so much belief in yourself and that you think you are as God

Lian (43:56)

Mmm. Mmm.

Caitlin Matthews (43:57)

And of course there were lots and lots of stories about it. ⁓ And one of the chief ones is of course the story of Athena and Arachne who gets turned into a spider because she boasts that her weaving is so much better than the goddess of the earth, which is like, dear, that was not a good thing to say. And so then they have a contest and that's the result of it. so sort of being

Lian (44:01)

Yes.

Caitlin Matthews (44:24)

in a good relationship with the divinity also means having the humility of a human being. And if we don't have that, then a whole bunch of stuff comes and people can become totally delusional in their understanding of this and take on the archetype, which is not the aim and duty of a human being. And it ends with people doing

Lian (44:30)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Caitlin Matthews (44:53)

terrible things, ⁓ really terrible things and hurting people that they love ⁓ and dismaying everyone around them. the, usually the, ⁓ you know, that exercise takes them finally into a secure unit. Yeah, because, you know, I know the great archetype is the men who think that they're or Jesus or whatever. And ⁓

Lian (45:11)

Mmm.

Caitlin Matthews (45:21)

And there's one thing mediating a divinity, which is like being the servant of the divinity ⁓ as a priest or priestess ⁓ or as an oracle or whatever, but you don't live as the divinity.

Lian (45:31)

Mmm.

Yes, I think this is such an important conversation to have. of course, the examples we've given, it could be that someone listening like, well, I'm not going to believe I literally am, whatever, say, for example, goddess it is. But I think at a more subtle level, I've certainly seen that happen a lot. In

Caitlin Matthews (45:49)

Mm.

Thank you.

Lian (46:01)

in circles that we've run before where we are working with archetypes. I've had a number of times where women, again, very innocently, I don't say this in any meaning to sort of judge or shame. This is kind of part of our kind of learning to work with these powers again. But I've had women say, okay, yes, I'm going to sort of claim the archetype of goddess and I'm going to work with that as my name.

Caitlin Matthews (46:13)

Yo yo

Yes.

Mm.

Lian (46:31)

And I'm being quite upset with me and I'm like, you in short, you work at that kind of like you believe you are a goddess is not just kind of goddess level gifts is goddess level problems as well that humans aren't equipped to deal with. And it's, this is real stuff. I think this can, we can almost think, no, ultimately it's just a psychological

Caitlin Matthews (46:40)

Yeah.

No.

You know, yeah.

Lian (46:57)

you know, trick, it's just something to, you know, pretend we're working with. But no, there's real powers here. And there are real pitfalls that can happen when we work with them in this way.

Caitlin Matthews (47:00)

Yo. Yo.

Exactly, exactly. And I think that the core problem here is, is that for many people, it just remains a story or psychological archetype, whereas actually the reality is they're real. And that's the, mean, anything else is delusional, really. ⁓ And, and deeply disrespectful. mean,

Lian (47:23)

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Caitlin Matthews (47:35)

I looked at a quotation from the 5th century Neoplatonist Sinesius, who's a very interesting person because he was a pagan Neoplatonist who became a Christian and finally a bishop, believe it or not. But he was very interesting and he had ⁓ just brought this bit out and he said that the Boeotian legends, so this is part of Greece, ⁓ tear to pieces those who intrude.

and spy upon the secret rights of Dionysus. Ignorance in the case of initiations is sanctity and on this account the night is entrusted with the mysteries and the caverns that may not be trodden or hollowed out for this reason. Moments and places are chosen that know how to conceal the inspired celebration of the mysteries. So he's talking here about the mystery religions into which people were initiated. initiation into the mysteries of a divinity, you know, enables you to be in a good way with them because you've got other people who are there too. And I suppose in, you know, within our modern world that sort of things like sort of candomblé and voodoo and so on, you know, are good occasions where people are taken by divinities while they're celebrating or dancing.

Lian (48:36)

Mmm.

Caitlin Matthews (49:01)

But there'll be someone there who recognises who they're being, you know, seized upon by, and there'll be people to bring them down and look after them. But he also says, ⁓ he said, beyond words of good augury or of good fortune, he says, and I'm speaking as one who cautiously employs sacred language, he says, ⁓ as to those things which lie far away, meaning of the gods.

Lian (49:07)

Yes.

Hmm.

Caitlin Matthews (49:30)

it would be part of a foolhardy mind and tongue to reveal them and let them be kept in holy silence untouched by written words lest anyone should cast an eye on anything not permitted for he who reveals as he who sees such things incurs the wrath of the divine nature

so so this is someone who's had experience of you know the sacred world before christianity

who's still speaking from within Christianity, which is really interesting. So he's someone who has really experienced this himself. And he's saying, you know, we don't talk about these things. And of course, things like the Eleusinian mysteries of Demeter and Persephone, they were never spoken of. No one ever spoke of them. No one. were no were no records of anyone revealing what those mysteries actually were. We can infer them, but you know, they're not

Lian (50:03)

Mmm.

Caitlin Matthews (50:28)

bandied about. ⁓ So there is a respect and a distance in the ancient world, which I think we find in places where these kinds of rights are still being done in different parts of the world, that people won't talk about them. If you go and speak to an elder of a particular indigenous tradition, they won't talk about things.

Lian (50:31)

Hmm. Yes. Fascinating.

Caitlin Matthews (50:53)

In fact, our

Lian (50:54)

Mmm.

Caitlin Matthews (50:55)

friend Alan Garner, who is ⁓

⁓ the author. He went out to ⁓ northern Australia and spoke to an Aboriginal elder there and ⁓ he talked to him over several days but he was also witness of someone who'd come as a sort of anthropologist student ⁓ and he was also asking very similar questions and Alan didn't say anything until after the person had gone away and then he said to the elder

You told me a very different thing from what you told that person you've just been speaking to. And the elder said, yes, we spoke. We spoke to him like we were talking about the kids version of this. Or as they'd been talking as people who were both initiates who knew.

Lian (51:41)

Hmm.

Caitlin Matthews (51:45)

Yes. So so I think that

Lian (51:46)

Yes.

Caitlin Matthews (51:49)

that's a whole area around this that we no longer have, because it's all fair game, isn't it? And there are.

Lian (51:53)

Mm, yes, it

really is.

Caitlin Matthews (51:57)

There are things now that, ⁓ but of course the mysteries are still the mysteries. And so ⁓ we still can't talk about them ⁓ in a sense, or indeed as Robert Graves said, we could sit in a cafe and talk about them quite loudly and no one would have the faintest clue what we were talking.

Lian (52:14)

Mm. Yeah. Yeah, so true. It, it occurs to me that this is everything we've been speaking about here is such a, such a nuanced, paradoxical, ⁓ subtle realm in that.

Caitlin Matthews (52:16)

Thank

Lian (52:39)

we are like humans for probably the whole of human history, we're going to be called to these powers. And we're also going to find ourselves kind of in those areas where there is danger and there are places we're going to kind of get lost in the the marshes. And that's kind of the territory. It doesn't mean therefore we should stay away, but it also means that we need to tread with caution. And

Caitlin Matthews (52:45)

Yo.

Yeah.

Lian (53:08)

I wonder what you feel in closing is an important message to give or anything else that you feel would help people kind of navigate this terrain again, where we've lost so much that would help us navigate it.

Caitlin Matthews (53:21)

Yes,

yes. Well as Celestia said, myth is something that has never happened and is happening all the time. It's like, you know, when When approaching divinities, ⁓ know, ⁓ part of you will be like, is this true? ⁓ But actually, you know, if you behave as if it's true, that's pretty good.

Lian (53:46)

Hmm.

Caitlin Matthews (53:47)

Yeah, it's not, don't swallow it hook line and sinker, but act as if this is the truest thing you ever did. ⁓ Be respectful. ⁓ Be reciprocal. So if things, If good things come to you as a result of working with an archetype or divinity, well, at least thank them. What are the rights by which you thank them?

Lian (53:49)

Yes. ⁓

Hmm.

Caitlin Matthews (54:16)

Know, What is pleasing to them? Yeah, Those are questions that we can always ask our spirits, you know, if we want to leave offerings for them. it's like, ⁓ what is pleasing to you? In the same way that, you know, you know, you wouldn't buy your aunt a sort of ⁓ a great big case of ⁓ really hard chocolates, because she hasn't got the teeth for it. And she prefer to have some, you know, some other sorts of things that melt in the mouth.

Lian (54:19)

Hmm.

Caitlin Matthews (54:44)

But you know, so find out what is pleasing and what is it that you're doing that's really annoying to penalties that you're, you know, that you're working with because those are things that you can stop doing. It's pretty simple. ⁓ But, you know, don't behave as if you were the great God or Goddess, whomever.

Lian (54:53)

Mmmmm

Yes.

Yeah.

Caitlin Matthews (55:11)

I think that's it in the knockdown really. ⁓ Just putting it short.

And And be there with all your heart because this is about love. And what we love, loves us. And we know that with some divinities and spirits that might be pretty rough love sometimes because they will often put us through experiences and show us things that we need to have undergone. And that's also part of what we're fitted for

Lian (55:25)

Hmmmm ⁓

Yeah.

Caitlin Matthews (55:47)

as human beings, that we have certain capacities and gifts and so on. And what's good for one person isn't necessarily good for another one. And so following the way someone else does something is not necessarily a good guide, but good manners are good manners. And I think good manners are essential in all of life. So be thankful, be gracious.

Lian (55:47)

Mmm.

Hmm.

Caitlin Matthews (56:14)

be respectful. ⁓ Those are really what it comes to. And be inspired, which is what we always are, isn't it?

Lian (56:20)

Yes.

It is.

And that is really, again, think such a human, like a pull that we have, you know, that to what it inspires us. My dog is breakdancing in the background. don't know if it's Pitman. He's like sort of like monster coming up from the deep.

Caitlin Matthews (56:37)

Yeah.

I can tell, can see the shadow of it. It looks really exciting.

Lian (56:50)

But yes, that human, like notice what you're being called to, notice what you're being inspired by. And I think again, that's something that has called us back to myth and archetype. It's just so, so meant for us. And so if you're feeling that call, it's something to listen to, trust.

Caitlin Matthews (56:54)

Yeah.

Mm.

Yes.

Yeah.

It really is, because if you don't actually believe that these ⁓ archetypes or divinities ⁓ are actually there and actually have powers, of course, no, of course, you never give offerings to them because, you know, why would you? Because, you know, they don't really exist. They're just figments of your imagination, which is awful, really awful. ⁓

Lian (57:27)

Why would you?

Mmm.

Caitlin Matthews (57:39)

So, you know, if you're doing sacred work, it does come with a terrain of, you know, learn your craft, learn, you know, learn the context. And for goodness sake, you know, if you're there's a particular ⁓ myth or legend or something that's inspiring to you, go to the source, get the nearest that you can to the source of whatever's written down or of the places where these things happen and know for yourself because. ⁓

Lian (57:59)

Hmm.

Caitlin Matthews (58:09)

as you said, in your visit to ⁓ Rhodes, you you couldn't have got that by reading a book or reading a story about Athena. You got it from being in the place. It swarmed out of the earth at you. Yeah.

Lian (58:16)

Mmm.

Yeah, it's nothing replaces that. Well, thank you so much. This has been, ⁓ as ever, such a pleasure in our continuing pen pal relationship of absolute justice.

Caitlin Matthews (58:28)

Yeah.

Yes indeed, yeah it's wonderful,

I love it and you know I hope things go well for you ⁓ over the interval of our next correspondence. ⁓

Lian (58:47)

Thank

Yes.

Like quite, oh and before we close, where can listeners find out more about you and the wonderful work you do? Of course the links will be on the show notes, but please do share that as well.

Caitlin Matthews (59:02)

Sure.

OK, so I have a website which is hallowquest.org.uk and I also have a sub stack where I write every week ⁓ and ⁓ at the moment half of my ⁓ writings are completely free and the other half are subscription only.

⁓ and that is called, it's got my name, it's Caitlin Matthews with the fada, Hallowquest Sanctuary. So if you put those two things in together then it should bring it up for you.

Lian (59:42)

Wonderful. Thank you so much. Until our next time, ⁓ thank you.

Caitlin Matthews (59:47)

Thank you.

Great. See you then. Bye bye, everyone.

Lian (59:51)

What a wonderful show, as ever, they always are with Caitlin. Here were the parts that really stood out to me. Sacred contracts, offerings and good manners keep archetypal work grounded, sane and mutually respectful. Context and lineage matter deeply. When we sever archetypes from their myth, as we so often do, very innocently in this modern culture, we lose their living power.

The difference between identification and relationship is everything. When we remember right distance, the sacred can move through us without taking us over. If you'd like to hop on over to the show notes for the links, they're at BeMythical.com/podcast/524 And as you heard me say earlier, if you're struggling with the challenges of walking your soul path in this crazy modern world, and would benefit from guidance, kinship and support, come join us at Unio, the community for wild sovereign souls. You can discover more and join us by hopping on over to BeMythical.com/unio Let's walk the path home together. And if you don't want to miss out on next week's episode, head on over to your podcasting app or platform of choice, including YouTube and hit that subscribe or follow button.

That way you'll get each episode delivered straight to your device, auto-magically, as soon as it comes out. Thank you so much for listening, you've been wonderful. I was sending you all my love. I'll catch you again next week, and until then, go be mythical.

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