How to be rooted in a world that’s forgotten - Tad Hargrave
Episode 527, released 19th November 2025.
This week’s show is with Tad Hargrave. Tad is a hippy who developed a knack for marketing (and then learned how to be a hippy again).
Since 2001, he’s been weaving together strands of ethical marketing, Waldorf School education, a history in the performing arts, local culture work, anti-globalization activism, an interest in his ancestral, traditional cultures, community building and supporting local economies into this work of helping people create profitable businesses that are ethically grown while restoring the beauty of the marketplace.
Listen or watch on:
Or if you prefer to read: Scroll right down for the transcript
Tad did improv comedy semi-professionally for 25 years, co-ran Edmonton’s progressive community building network TheLocalGood.ca, founded streetcarshows.com and the Jams program of yesworld.org. He speaks Scottish Gaelic and helped to launch and co-facilitate the Nova Scotia Gaels Jam.
He is from Edmonton, Alberta (traditionally known, in the language of the Cree, as Amiskwaciy [Beaver Hill] and later Amiskwaciwaskihegan [Beaver Hill House]) and currently lives in Duncan, BC (Quw’utsun territory).
In this episode, Lian and Tad explore how living stories form culture, meaning they’re more than psychological metaphors, they’re teachings tied to the land and beings around us. They touch upon Tad’s Waldorf childhood and the years he drifted, the Gaelic homecoming that pulled him to Scotland and an elder storyteller. They follow the thread from archetype to architecture… sun, soil, and seasons.
From there the conversation turns to how stories remember what a culture must not forget, why punishment poisons, and how initiation is smuggled into folktales so boys and girls grow into people.
Listen if you have ever felt imprinted by myth then somehow lost your connection to it, wondered why archetypes can feel lacking, or longed for belonging.
We’d love to know what YOU think about this week’s show. Let’s carry on the conversation… please leave a comment below.
What you’ll learn from this episode:
How Tad’s own hunger for ancestral story led him from activism to Gaelic study, reawakening a lineage of belonging
How old stories once carried medicine, mapping the plants, elements, and ethics that kept a people alive
Why myth without land becomes psychology, and what returns when stories are rooted back in place
Resources and stuff spoken about:
Find out more about Membership for Marketing for Hippies
See Tad’s Upcoming Events
Join UNIO, The Community for Wild Sovereign Souls: This is for the old souls in this new world… Discover your kin & unite with your soul’s calling to truly live your myth.
Don’t want to miss a thing?
Subscribe (BTW, it’s absolutely FREE) to the show on your favourite platform or app by clicking the relevant button below… That way you’ll receive each episode automagically straight to your device as soon as it’s released!
Thank you!
Lian & Jonathan
Episode Transcript:
Please note: We are a small team and not able to check through the transcript our software provides. So you may find some words are out of place and a few sentences don’t make complete sense. If you do see something utterly ridiculous we’d love you to let us know so we can correct it. Please email any howlers with the time stamp to team@bemythical.com.
Lian (00:00)
What if the old stories were never just stories, but survival guides for being human? Hello, my beautiful souls and a huge warm welcome back. In this episode, I'm joined once again by the wonderful Tad Hargrave. Tad's been on the show, ⁓ maybe a million times by now. ⁓ There's a good reason for that. He's a listener and also team favourite and a personal favourite of mine too.
Tad is a hippie who developed a knack for marketing and then learned how to be a hippie again. Since 2001, he's been weaving together strands of ethical marketing, Waldorf school education, a history in the performing arts, local culture work, anti-globalisation activism, an interest in his ancestral community building and supporting local economies into this work of helping people create profitable businesses that are ethically grown or restoring the beauty of the marketplace.
Together we explore how living stories form culture, myths were never meant just as psychological metaphors, but teachings bound to the land, the sun, the soil and the seasons. From there our conversation turns to how stories remember what a culture must not forget. Why punishment poisons and how initiation is smuggled into folklore so boys and girls grow into people. Listen if you've ever felt imprinted by myth and then somehow lost your connection to it. Wondered why archetypes can sometimes feel lacking or long for that sense of homecoming. And before we jump into all of that goodness,
First it's time for your weekly omen from the algorithmic oracles. The old storyteller leans close, pass by and your alerts echo with hollow chatter. Subscribe and each week the myths return rich with laughter, wonder and the wisdom of those who came before.
Best subscribe if you haven't already. And if you're struggling with the challenges of walking your soul path in this crazy modern world, And with benefit from guidance, kinship and support, come join Unio, the community for wild sovereign souls. Unio is a living home for those of us on the wild sovereign soul path. And together we reclaim our wildness, actualise our sovereignty and awaken our souls. Come join us by hopping over to be mythical.com slash Unio or click the link in the description. And now.
Back to this week's episode. Let's dive in.
Lian (02:45)
Hello Tad welcome back
Tad (02:47)
Thank you so much. It's great to be back.
Lian (02:49)
Well, this is going to be a different conversation to our usual ones. So typically we've spoken about more, I guess what you're known for in terms of your work with marketing and niching and all of those things. And as I was just saying with you, saying to you just now, I've noticed that you and I have over the years sort of got on our own journey with all things mere folktale. And I wanted to just know bit more about that. What that's not at all from a business perspective, although I'm sure as these things do, they absolutely bleed their gold into all aspects of our lives. But I just wanted to understand what brought you into this world of myth and folktale and story and what it tells us about, ⁓ I guess our place in the world of things. That's what I really wanted to explore with you today. So as you said, who knows how this is going to go, but let's set sail in that direction. So I wanted to begin with asking you, if you were to look back in your childhood, I noticed that those of us that kind of drawn back to myth, often there's a kind of like we can see the seeds were set. far longer ago and then for whatever reason we lost touch. Is that the case for you?
Tad (04:19)
Yeah, yeah, my mom would read to us all the time. And I went to Waldorf school, so there was so much myth. Yeah, yeah, it only really occurred to me in last couple years, like, right, I grew up hearing these stories and told orally by the teachers. So I grew up sort of awash in that like, ⁓ Waldorf, Waldorf students are. And yeah, so in my childhood for for certain, there's that.
Lian (04:45)
Yeah, it's fascinating to me how many of us that it's like we were imprinted, but then for some reason, like let go of it. And for you, can you remember, I'll share a bit of what I realise now tracking back happened for me, but do you recognise there was a time and perhaps the reason why you did let that go for a period?
Tad (05:10)
Yeah, I went to public school. More stories, I guess. I went to McCurnan Junior High in Edmonton. And I was much more interested in fitting in, you know, than I was about following some kind of thread around mythology. And it was, mean, when I was younger, it wasn't so profound, though I loved reading. I was at the library all the time after school. I'd just go read books. It wasn't they were old folktales at all. just...
Lian (05:12)
Mmm.
Tad (05:41)
⁓ you know, kids books and I, yeah, this is, and then I went to high school, got involved in the whole personal growth scene, ended up, the kind of reconnection point. One of the reconnection points was I ended up moving to, well, I attended a camp put on by this group, youth for environmental sanity based out of Santa Cruz. And the two of the facilitators or three facilitators and two of them ⁓ were Waldorf students. And a lot of the people who were there at this camp ended up being Waldorf students. And I couldn't figure out like, why do I feel so at home with these people? And then it came out, was like, right, there's something familiar about the aesthetic, the vibe, the kind of way of being. so that, you know, woke something up in me, but not around stories exactly.
Lian (06:23)
Hmm.
Tad (06:38)
And then through them, started a project called ⁓ Youth Jams, which was bringing together leading young change makers from around the world. So I started that in 1999. It's still going today. And yeah, yeah, it's amazing. Yeah. 26 years later, it's still, it's still going. And I ran it for a few years and I, the inkling on the selfish end, I just wanted to hang out with all these amazing young people who are doing up to amazing things. I was never going to.
Lian (06:49)
Wow.
Tad (07:08)
do in my life. Mostly, I mean thank God in a way because they were doing these things out of, you know, tragedy and circumstance that this place but I kind of wanted to hang out and at the selfish level be in that limelight a bit of all these amazing leaders but also I had this sense about the
Lian (07:15)
Mmm.
Tad (07:28)
the importance of bringing good people together, which has been a through line in my life. just thought if we could, instead of conferences where you just are sitting in plenary, just get the people I want to hang out for a week. And so we did that. And at the second one, there were a lot of indigenous folks. And the third one even more, and they'd always introduce themselves in their own language and say who their people were.
And I had friends who were a part of this group at NIA, the Indigenous Non-Indigenous Youth Alliance, and they were getting together doing ceremony and they kept inviting me. And they were very persistent on that matter and I never went. Because I, I ⁓ don't know, I just didn't have the interest to draw like the music, the story, the drumming, the dance, the song of different Indigenous people. As much as I was green with envy about it and admired it, but I felt no connection to it. And
Lian (08:18)
Hmm.
Tad (08:20)
Then a fellow Puma Kispe Singona and another fellow Clayton Thomas Mueller, it was a swampy Cree guy from Winnipeg and Puma from Peru. They both said, you have your own Celtic ancestry. You know, you should look at that. And suddenly something hit me as a weight. Gaelic, I do have an indigenous language and I've always loved those stories and that drumming and that dance and the song and the bagpipes. All of that has always moved me and stirred me.
Lian (08:40)
Mmmmm
Tad (08:49)
Like when I hear Indigenous people singing their songs, you know, it's beautiful. I admire it. And some of them I enjoy more than others and feel more drawn to than others, but none of them evoke that home feeling. And so this has always done that for me. And so that, you know, opened up this enormous...
Lian (09:04)
Mmm. ⁓
Tad (09:12)
container of spiritual hunger and cultural hunger and I was unbearable for years because I was just reading all the books, listening to bagpipes or like Celtic music. ⁓ Every room I went in, I just had to have it on. It was like I'd been starving and I was getting nourished. And so
Lian (09:21)
Hehehehehe
Mmm.
Tad (09:32)
Part of that was I went to the Isle of Skye, well, I went to do weekly Gaelic classes in Edmonton, then I went to St. effects in Nova Scotia to do Celtic studies for a year. And then I went to, yeah, went to Salmone off back on the Isle of Skye for half a year doing, studying Gaelic and all the classes are in Gaelic. And while I was there, I ended up meeting the storyteller, George McPherson, who died just January this year.
Lian (09:43)
I didn't ⁓
Tad (10:00)
And he was the old wizard, you know, he was the archetypal storyteller that only exists in movies, he just knew so many things about these old stories. And so I got to learn from him a little bit. And that woke up this hunger for the stories. I ended up going back, had a health incident, gall badder stuff, and I ended up going back to Canada to deal with that.
Lian (10:21)
Mmm.
Tad (10:29)
and I had to hustle to make money. And I had this inward thought of it'll be 10 years before I look at this again, before I have time. And that ended up being about true. Then in 2014, I joined the Orphan Wisdom School with Stephen Jenkinson. And that reopened the door to all those things. And it hasn't closed since. And I suppose most recently, over last three or four years, been studying with Stephanie McKay, of course, who you've brought in. She and I have become friends. And a dear friend of mine, Kikisamo Esquieu, who's a Métis Indigenous cultural activist from Alberta. She and I have done some work together on stories. And so, yeah, that's up until now, anyways.
Lian (11:15)
Hmm, well, quite a story. my gosh, there's so much in what you just shared. going back to what you said in terms of it didn't necessarily seem that profound, the childhood immersion in story. And yet, I think that's the thing. There's an almost whatever our childhood is, is normalised, isn't it? And I was thinking, even though I didn't go to Waldorf school, because I was raised by a hippie, I mean, I may as well have been. And I think there is that kind of immersion in that there's always this kind of, my sense is, this is my projection on what you just said. Those of us that have had those sort of alternative upbringings, there is almost like the veil just feels thinner. And there is this kind of like the accessibility to this other world.
⁓ I look back at my childhood and the way that, example, one of, one of the ways that I was immersed in myth and story was my father used to play Dungeons and Dragons with us. And it just used to bring these whole worlds alive, which I honestly thought were half real. You know, there was, it didn't really feel less real than whatever was called, you know, normal life.
And it sort of doesn't feel profound because it feels normal, but there is some sort of normalised magic that at some point, and again, my own experience was similar to yours. There was like, ⁓ there is this normal world that I'm meant to fit in and that kind of other world doesn't have a place here.
Tad (13:03)
Yeah, I was thinking I felt that way about Doctor Who when I was a kid. Part of me was convinced it was for real.
Lian (13:07)
Yeah.
Tad (13:11)
if you're raised in an oral culture, you're raised hearing these stories. They are true, because they're stories about the land, they're story about the place that you live, there's stories about that, you you start to realise as you get older that these are stories, not just
Lian (13:15)
Mmm.
Tad (13:28)
set in the land, but actually stories about the land. This is the, this woman in the story is the land. ⁓ And so then you live in a storied landscape. live where there's, never alone. You're always awash in these stories. You're surrounded by your history, your ancestry, and the mythology you live in. now, you know, instead of that, we get psychology.
Lian (13:55)
I did an episode, I don't know if you're familiar with Caitlin Matthews. I think you'd love her and her work actually. Her and her husband John Matthews, they are incredible pair. You know John Matthews?
Tad (14:08)
well, I thought I pronounce it Caitlin, but it's. ⁓
Lian (14:12)
No, you don't. It's written, Caitlin but it's an Irish way of saying that particular spelling of her name. Yeah, I would, yes. you do know. So yes, absolutely wonderful woman. And we were talking on the podcast last week about the way that modern psychology has almost like just kind of pulled the archetypes out of the stories. So you kind of like, you lose the roots, you lose that context and you kind of got these archetypes which have power and are, you know, do in some ways for, I guess at best they can be a doorway back into story, but only if we realise it's missing or allow us to kind of allow them to sort of bring us back into the story. But I think that's the challenge, isn't it? It's recognising the archetypes alone.
are bereft of ⁓ the land they came from, really simply put.
Tad (15:14)
Yeah, I think that's the extra step. It's not just getting the archetype back in the story, because there is that, right? You get stories that have these people in them, and instead of talking about the specific person, we make an archetype out of them, like this is the wicked witch, or this is the handsome prince. So then it's no longer a specific handsome prince, it's no longer a specific witch, it's archetype.
Lian (15:21)
Mmm.
Tad (15:40)
So yeah, when you put it back in a story, now there's more context and there's more understanding of this person. And then you could take a next step and realise that wait, within a living culture, these stories are all connected. So you start, yes, you get a story about the wolf being a bad person in this story, but then you learn the backstory of the wolf and why they're necessary in another story when you're older. So you get a nest of stories and...
Lian (15:53)
Yes.
Mmm.
Tad (16:07)
still that next step, as you said, that has to happen is it has to go back to the land because ⁓ these stories, it's so important to remember this, all of these oral tradition stories, everything in Grims, everything in Italo Calvino's collection of Italian myths, all these collections, ⁓ they come from oral traditions. Yeah, these come from people who pass the stories on knee to knee, you know.
meaning grandchild on the knee to the next grandchild on the knee for generations. And so that then is bound by memory, human memory, which is not infinite. I mean, now you want 20 versions of a story, just hit Google and boom, you've got them, you've got the books. But back then you had a limit of memory, so you couldn't afford to remember everything. You might hear a story and it's very entertaining.
but you gotta do the quick math like, is that worth remembering or not? Does it stick or not? And if it doesn't, away it goes. So the reason these stories are kept, I would submit is because they have teachings and teachings about how to be a good human in the world and a good human on a particular place of land. How do we live? How do we survive? The stories have those teachings. That's the function of culture. ⁓ You know, I heard that first from my friend Kisumosuke who got it from this elder Narcisse blood. You know, that culture are these sets of teachings of how do you live on the land? And so ⁓ if you don't understand that that's what the stories are for and that the stories are actually primarily there to help you understand the architecture of life.
Lian (17:41)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Tad (18:00)
In the absence of the architecture, you get archetype. In the absence of seeing the real things that this is the sun and this is the moon and these are the stars and this is the tree and this is a story about this plant. In the absence of that, which is the real architecture of the world, you can actually see and hear and taste and touch and experience. get these inner indwelling archetypes that have no context to them.
So the context of so many of these stories has been ripped away, which of course is why Stephanie McKay's work is so important, is this reweaving of the context back into what's now just empty content. ⁓ And it's not that the psychological level, I mean, just interviewed Stephanie myself a couple of days ago. It's not that like the psychological level isn't there, but it's good to remember none of these stories were crafted by Jungian analysts. None of these stories were crafted by people who had the faintest
Lian (18:55)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm.
Tad (18:59)
idea about what psychology was in the modern sense. They were also all crafted by people who had a very collective sense of identity, primarily an individual second. was not, you know, this wasn't ⁓ a hyper-individuated existence. It wasn't a nuclear family existence. It was a village existence that existed in the context of the natural world. So now we live these hyper-individuated things. We have no connection to the land, most of us. ⁓ And so then it's all just inner archetypes, which is, it's beautiful in that if you follow the thread of the inner archetype, it will eventually deliver you back to the architecture of the world. But ⁓ it's easy to drop that thread and it's easy and it's hard, it's desperately hard to do. Like if you think, this character
Lian (19:43)
Hmm. I see that. Hmm.
Tad (19:56)
in the story is the devil and that's really actually just the inner devil in me and you don't realise that actually in that story they're the the devil because they had to become the devil to cover up for the fact that this was a story about the sun and this is a story about the real sun and not just you know what I'm saying like you take it from fun to a story about the sun
Lian (20:19)
Hmm.
Tad (20:24)
to, we can't have it be a pagan sun god, so it's got to become the devil, and now it's my inner devil. so suddenly you're just, yes, there's value in, okay, looking at your inner devil, there's benefit to this. It's not bereft of purpose, but it is far from the purpose of why that story really existed to begin with.
Lian (20:30)
Hmm.
Yes, you've, I've just joined some dots ⁓ between a couple of things I hadn't seen this way before. ⁓ much of my studies over the last ⁓ five years or so has been in various forms of shamanism. And you don't need to spend too long around our traditional shamans to recognise that our modern ideas of shamanism, which has also been very psychologised, ⁓ it doesn't take many conversations before you start to realise like, ⁓ it's ultimately about, you know, these are practical things like about survival. And just like you're saying, not survival for the individual, but survival for that community. And ⁓
It's a completely, the way we see the world in the modern terms, we just, don't really have the way of perceiving things for that to fully make sense, but we can start to, ⁓ okay, the way I see things is so different, but even just like realisng I don't know is a start to kind of like go back to something that is, I guess, more real, true. and so that's been something that I've been realisng over, say the last five years or so around shamanism. And I just realised my current shamanic teacher is a indigenous Mongolian. And I was, as you were talking, was like, of course there's the, ⁓ I guess historical.
The way that we as humans in community have worked with shamanism is not really any different in some ways to how we've worked with story. And in fact, the two things are so intrinsically linked. There's so many times that I'll hear a story that has some kind of meaning in a Mongolian, know, like it was a story that happened in Mongolia that makes sense of these teachings. And half the time, I'm not sure if it actually happened, if it's a real story or if it's...
a story that is meant to be a teaching, maybe both, you know, it's never really said directly like this actually happened or not. But I just suddenly saw you're completely right, you know, just like with shamanism, stories had this very practical survival for the collective reason for being. And
That completely changes how we orientate to them. And again, the fact that, like you're saying, that they are, they have an architecture, but the architecture is so specific. It's not a kind of, there are things that are sort of generally relevant to humans living in this world, but many of them are also very specific to that particular land. And what makes sense given that land's ⁓ temperature and animals and plants.
which again makes sense when you're trying to survive and not just survive but live well live live alongside those beings. There's something about what you said there that was like of course that is allowed me to see the same is happening with shamanism and story that we've we've forgotten.
Tad (24:16)
One of the examples of this is the story I got from George, ⁓ Torema Krupach, which is a crippled Norman or lame Norman. basically you understand as you hear the story, it's the story of a man who has rheumatoid arthritis. He's, know, knotted up.
It's sore to walk when he bumps into things that hurts and that kind of thing. And there's a part in the story where he's visiting the little people and he's just given them some gifts to get his cow, his beloved cow, Ailey back. And they say, well, know, you've given us good gifts. So now we'll give you gifts. And they take out witch hazel and nettle and they start beating them and they beat him and they beat him and they beat him with it, which hardly seems like a gift.
He's screaming, he's screaming, and then he, you know, he flies back to his home. And he's standing upright and he doesn't have the arthritis anymore. And he is naked because he gave them all of his clothes. So his name is no longer Torebet Kruppach, it becomes Torebet Laun, naked Norman. But he, but the, if somebody doesn't understand what this story is, what they'll say is, and then they
Lian (25:27)
you
Tad (25:36)
they took out some branches and began to beat him with those branches. And they forget that it's witch hazel and it's stinging nettle, both of which do wonders for rheumatoid arthritis, both of which are medicinal for that specific condition. And so, I mean, that's one detail in one story, but that's why you have this, know, all these stories, they've got knowledge about plants in them and what those plants are good for, also what they're not good for.
Lian (25:39)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Mm.
Tad (26:04)
You know which which don't eat the rose hips and make your butt itchy, know and like this will be a funny kid story but the kids are learning about the local plants through the stories and Then there's stories that have the natural world in them So there's a story of the devil in the three golden hairs, which I first heard from Duncan Williamson, but there's a Czech version of it and Then so in the devil in the three golden hairs, you know This woodcutter wants to marry a princess who he has to go collect three golden hairs from the devil's head
Lian (26:08)
Mm-hmm.
Tad (26:33)
And there's a whole journey to get there and come back. But if you just stop and think about it, it's like, wait, why?
Why does he have to go see the devil?
And why are they golden hairs in the first place? Why would he have, why would the devil have golden hair? Like it just doesn't, it's not a natural, that all makes sense. And this is one of the ways I think you, you know, you're catching onto a story is that every part of the story suddenly makes sense. It all starts to click into place. That every, ⁓ image in the story contains the whole story. Every image.
Lian (26:57)
Mm-mm.
Mmm.
Hmm.
Tad (27:16)
whole story's there. It's like a hologram. You you take a part of the hologram, the whole hologram's there from a different angle, little fuzzier, and you have, if you have all the parts of the hologram, it's a crystal clear image. And so it's the same with a culture. All the stories give you a crystal clear something. One story has the whole culture in it. Every single story is a seed of culture. And every story itself, Stephanie talks about, is a seed jar. It has many, many images, and each of those images are seeds.
Lian (27:31)
Mmm.
Tad (27:45)
that contain the whole story. So then you look at the older version of this story and it's like, wait a minute, no, it's not the devil. He's the son. He's grandfather know all. And why does he know everything? Because he's the son. And he goes across the sky and he sees everything all the time. And when he goes back home, this old man, it's in some variable, the devil goes and he lays his head on his mother's lap and falls asleep. And you're like, that's a little weird. Here's a grown man.
Lian (28:11)
Not judging
but...
Tad (28:15)
Maybe when you look at your oedipus complex, or you got some kind of... We would psychologise that. And this is what happens with these stories, is ⁓ you'd say, yeah, well, this is about how men go back to their mother, and when things are hard, and why we need to stop that. But no, he's the sun, and so she's the earth. And so that's the sunset, the sun resting his head on the earth as he falls asleep.
because that's what it looks like, you know? And then you realise, wait, him getting three golden hairs from the dullest head, there's a seasonal thing. This is a young man's initiation where he's bringing back three golden hairs. So he's bringing the sun back with him to his people. So it's, you know, he's going there in winter to bring back the sun and that's his heroism. ⁓ So the story suddenly has this much deeper, richer meaning in the old Czech version too.
Lian (29:05)
you
Tad (29:14)
But in the Grimm's version, ⁓ he gets some gold and treasure from this one king he helps along the way with insight he got from the devil, gets some more treasure from another one. But in the old Czech version, he gets 12 white horses and then 12 black horses. Well, so there you go. You've got 12 days of sunlight, 12 hours of nighttime, or 12 and 12. So there's a very clear, okay, there's something about the equinox in this then.
Lian (29:36)
Hmm.
Tad (29:43)
There's something about the equal time being measured in the horses. So all the details in the story start to like, my God, it's all every detail reinforces the other detail versus what happens now is whether it's psychology or sort of, you know, a feminist bent is like, well, this is a story that's oppressing women. It's like, well, you say that because you don't understand what the story is.
Because okay, so great. So Briar Rose, the story of Briar Rose, it's a story about the passive feminine. She falls asleep. She's rescued by the active masculine. So if Freudians would say, well, it's not so bad because there's a part of us that's asleep. This feminine part needs to be reawoken by the masculine. Okay, fair enough. then it's still, okay, why 12 golden plates? Why is there a talking frog? Why does she prick her finger on a spindle?
Why is it a rusty key? Why is it a small door? Why is there a bed in the room that she falls asleep on? Why all the animals in particular that fall asleep? Why is the prince's mother in the French version? Why is she an ogre that wants to eat his kids? Like it doesn't line up. You can make sense of one detail and strip it of the context of the story and say, this is what it is. But unless all the details in the story line up and the details from all the versions of the story.
Lian (30:51)
Mmm.
Tad (31:04)
you know, can line up. I just think we don't have it. And I think the reason we usually don't have it is because we've forgotten where the stories come from.
Lian (31:12)
Yeah. Hmm. So before we, there's, there's times flown by and I may want to make sure that before we close, hear, and it might be, that is the story that you're going to say, which by all means name if it is Briar Rose. Is there a story that was the one that it was suddenly you realised like, ⁓ there is.
There's a there there, you know, it grabbed you, it moved you. It suddenly was more than just information.
Tad (31:46)
No, yeah, was the first one would have been the beaten stick, Duncan Williamson. And it's, man, it's a big story. We don't really have time. The short version is Jack lives with his mother and he works at a butcher and it makes a good living. And every night his mother would come home with the meat and the mother would tell him good stories. He'd fall asleep. And one day she says, ⁓ it looks troubled, what's wrong?
My sister, I just know she's in trouble. You have a sister? Yeah, I've got a twin sister. You have a twin sister that I never knew about? Yeah, but she left here while she got a reputation for being in the Dark Arts. No such thing as the Dark Arts. Anyway, she had a reputation she had to go by. She's my twin. I have a feeling she's in trouble. Could you just go see her, Jax? I can't leave my mother. It'd be terrible. No, no, no, I'd be fine. But if it in the world, would you do it? Okay. So he goes off on this journey to find his aunt. you know, and see if she's okay. And it's this incredible journey. And on the way there, he meets this old stick lady who gives him this, it's a Blackthorn stick. And, you know, cause she helps her out carrying some sticks and he's like, I don't need a walking stick. She's like, it's a magic stick. You'll be glad you have it. You know, whenever you're in trouble, you just say, beat them stick and the stick will beat them and send them away.
Well, he's walking, passes a hazel grove and in the hazel grove he hears a commotion. thinks, well maybe the people having a bit of a session and there'll be some food and grub and entertainment and spend the night there. When he gets closer, he realizes it's more of a holdup and there are these three noblemen on horses and they're surrounded by these really 50 rough looking characters. And he just thinks, well, that's not fair. That's hardly a fair fight. And Jack is all about fairness. And so he is, beat them stick and the stick knocks out all the rough looking characters and the… the man on the horse and the sand. Did you know who I am? No, he says, well, I'm the king and I want you to come meet the queen. So he takes them to the castle. When they get there, gives the king or the king gives Jack wine and food and feeds him. And he says, you know, I'd like to introduce you to the queen back. She's very sick. She's asleep or she hasn't been able to sleep in months and she's desperate with it. And, uh, and she said, oh, it's terrible. What happened? said, I don't know, but it started when
There's this young boy and he stole this fruit from the It's the tree of life, the tree of health. My father had it. It's in the garden there. And whenever you eat it, you never get sick. You're never unhealthy. But he stole it, so we had to punish him. threw him in the dungeon. And that night, she couldn't sleep. So he says, well, I'm going to go visit my aunt. And she's into the dark arts, so maybe she knows something. The king says, take a horse, take whatever you need. I'd be so grateful. He goes off, meets his aunt. His aunt, of course, knows everything.
And it's like, can tell you what that is, but just spend a few days with me because I'm lonely at the edge of the world. he's okay. So he does, but he goes back and let's take months. You know, this whole journey and it comes back. The King's overjoyed to see him. Did you find out what it is? Yeah. The, so the trouble started with you punish the boy and you shouldn't have punished him because it wasn't fair, ⁓ for him to be. So you got to let him go. ⁓ that's the first thing. And, ⁓ so he says, okay. So he lets the boy go. He says, now the queen can't sleep because the, sister. who's the one who combs the queen's hair every night. She's been tying knots in the queen's hair. That's why she can't sleep. King says, I didn't even know he had a sister and I'll punish her. He's like, no, no, See, you just quickly forget about the punishing thing. So you gotta let her go too. So away she goes home, because their mother's in the dark arts. And he says, but what about the tree? He says, well, the tree, that young girl, she put a sword under the tree. And. That's why. the goat in the garden rustles around, finds this rusty sword, pulls it out, it blossoms into heavy with fruit. The king's amazed, rewards him with gold. He goes home and tells his mother the same story I just told you. So that's a hopelessly condensed version. the thing that... What's clear in this story, there's so many layers to it. One, this is the story of the initiation of a young man.
Lian (35:45)
I had a certain charm, Tad. You did a good job there.
Tad (35:57)
who's gotten to the point where the men should have come and taken him away and no man came. So his mother sends him on an adventure to the world so the world can initiate them. But maybe it's in cahoots with the king. Maybe this is all part of the game. Maybe ⁓ this is what it looks like. She knows she has to send them on that road where he'll meet the king and all of this is supposed to happen. And the old stick lady, at one point she says, ⁓ this is before anything happens. She gives him the black thorn stick and says, yeah.
I love sticks because she's got piles of sticks all around her property. He's like, wow, you really you're fan, huh? So I love stick. And kind of stick is a good stick. got your jaggi sticks, your thorn sticks, your hazel sticks, your ash sticks, your oak sticks. Any kind of stick is a good stick. So that little detail, that run that she does of the types of trees, that's the sequence in the story. She is about to give him a jaggi thorn stick. He's about to walk by a hazel grove. The ash tree in Norse mythology and the story clearly has some
Lian (36:29)
Hehehehehe
Mmm.
Tad (36:53)
Norse connections to it is the ash tree. This is the mother tree. So now this is a young boy learning how to approach the feminine and court the feminine. ⁓ And then the oak to me, this is the king tree, you so there's a whole sequence of things that are put in this little detail in the story. And I remember I'd read the story 10 times before I realised, my God, it's a prediction of what's about to happen or it's a
Lian (37:02)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Tad (37:22)
or it's a this is her telling the story of the story that's about to come and he's being leaned on as a young man to heal the world that he has to do something to restore the tree of life this tree of health so you know there's there's so many levels to but that was the first story I read where I thought my god This story is so deep and profound. It's, yes, entertaining for little kids. The stick knocks everybody out and kids always laugh and they take glee in this, but there's more to it.
Lian (37:57)
And for you personally, if I appreciate these things are hard to summarise neatly, but if you were to, and perhaps it's changed over the years, I noticed that the stories that really speak to us, they kind of keep calling us back and then we're like, oh, now I'm here. Now this is how it's speaking to me. But either now or then what was.
What was the meaning for you? What was it letting you know about what you were being called to?
Tad (38:30)
You know, at that time, I had endured some real harshness from a particular community and public harshness. You know, it was not, it was very painful and it had me interested in restorative justice. And I saw in this story, that was the first layer of it. Like, this is a story about the consequences of punishment, the consequences of unfair punishment and what it does to the culture that you live in. You know, the sword specifically, it's not put in the tree.
Lian (38:51)
Mmm.
Tad (39:00)
it's put in the soil underneath the tree. So the soil, the living culture that sustains the tree is damaged. And so when the culture and the goodwill between people is damaged, this is bad news for everybody and everybody suffers as a result of it. So that was the thing I initially saw. And then the initiation as young man, that layer came later. But yeah, that was the first thing I saw.
Lian (39:26)
Hmm. Yeah. bless you. The thought of you being treated that way, just, but ⁓ I'm so glad you had the story to guide you through that. So I know that we're up on time and I'm really glad we had the chance to this conversation, although I ⁓ feel like we could have gone on for another hour at least and told some more stories, but, for the moment. Thank you so much, Tad. It's been lovely to explore this side of you. Although we haven't talked about much about your work at all, I'm sure listeners ⁓ would want to know more about you and what you're up to. Where can they do that?
Tad (40:08)
Well, you on the cultural front, you can check out tadhardgrave.substack.com. So I'm on Substack. And then of course I do the marketing, workmarketingforhippies.com. And I'll also give a plug, you know, again, for Stephanie McKay, who does such fantastic work on stories. I think it's stephaniemckay.ca. But if you're interested in really unfurling the deeper,
ancestral layers of these European stories. I've never seen anyone with the touch that she has.
Lian (40:39)
Yeah, I quite agree. It was a really ⁓ magical connection that you helped make there for me. Thank you. Well, for the moment, Tad, thank you. It's been a real pleasure as ever.
Tad (40:53)
You too. Take care.
Lian (40:54)
Thank you, bye bye.
Lian (40:57)
What a rich show that was. Here were my favourite parts. Tad's search for meaning through story carried him from activism to ancestral study, rekindling a sense of true belonging. Old stories once carried medicine, mapping the plant elements and ethics that kept a people alive. When myth is severed from land, it becomes psychology.
But when rooted back in place, it restores meaning, memory and true connection. If you'd like to hop on over to the show, it's for the links, they're at bemythical.com slash podcast slash five two seven. And as you heard me say earlier, if you're struggling with the challenges of walking your soul path in this crazy modern world, and we benefit from guidance, kinship and support, come join us in Unio, the community for wild sovereign souls.
You can discover more and join us by hopping over to be mythical.com slash union or click the link in the description. And if you don't want to miss out on next week's episode, head on over to your podcasting app or platform of choice, including YouTube and hit that subscribe or follow button. That way you'll get each episode delivered straight to your device or automatically as soon as it's released.
Thank you so much for listening. You've been wonderful.
I'm sending you all my love. I'll catch you again next week and until then, go be mythical.