The urgent truth about why western culture needs traditional shamanism - Isaac Wortley & Eddy Elsey
Episode 530, released 10th December 2025.
This week’s show is with Isaac Wortley and Eddy Elsey, both practicing apprentices of a traditional Mongolian lineage holder, who founded Mother Tree Shamanism.
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Isaac is an English shaman, who experienced a calling from a very young age. This led him to search out an authentic traditional teacher of Mongolian shamanism. Over ten years ago, he was initiated by his teacher, the founder of Mother Tree Shamanism, and has been an apprentice ever since. He has also studied traditional Mongolian/Tibetan medicine for last three years. He currently lives in the Midlands in England providing shamanic and traditional medicine services for people in the West.
Eddy has been studying as an apprentice with Mother Tree Shamanism for the last 3 years after transitioning to traditional shamanism from his previous background in neo-shamanism. He lives between the Midlands and London, and works as a traditional massage therapist. He is passionate about helping people discover authentic and traditional forms of spirituality.
In this episode, Lian, Isaac and Eddy explore why traditional shamanism matters so deeply for those of us in the West. They touch on Eddy’s descent into illness through neo-shamanic practice, the shock of meeting Mongolian shamans who can name events and symptoms with startling clarity, and the gap between learning shamanism in a weekend and a cosmology that allows a traditional shaman guide a herder to lost cattle on the steppe.
From there the conversation turns to the forgotten role of the shamanist, the everyday person who knows how to live in balance - a first aider rather than a surgeon, metaphorically speaking, and what spiritual hygiene might look like in British life rather than faraway cultures. Listen if you have ever felt your life unravel around the edges from shamanic work, wondered whether your symbols and visions are actually helping, or wished for community instead of having to do it all on your own.
We’d love to know what YOU think about this week’s show. Let’s carry on the conversation… please leave a comment below.
What you’ll learn from this episode:
How understanding spiritual hygiene and universal law changes the way you move through sacred sites, daily rituals and the hidden consequences of your practice
Why becoming a shamanist, with grounded cosmology and everyday balance, may soothe the hunger to be a practitioner more than yet another training ever could
What happens when shamanism becomes practical again, from dealing with health and relationships to the tangible, measurable changes that follow real ritual
Resources and stuff spoken about:
Join UNIO, The Community for Wild Sovereign Souls: This is for the old souls in this new world… Discover your kin & unite with your soul’s calling to truly live your myth.
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Thank you!
Lian & Jonathan
Episode Transcript:
Please note: We are a small team and not able to check through the transcript our software provides. So you may find some words are out of place and a few sentences don’t make complete sense. If you do see something utterly ridiculous we’d love you to let us know so we can correct it. Please email any howlers with the time stamp to team@bemythical.com.
Lian (00:00)
How might modern forms of shamanism be leading so many of us into pain without realising it? Hello my beautiful souls and a huge warm welcome back. In this episode I'm joined once again by Isaac Wortley and Eddy Elsey practicing apprentices of a traditional Mongolian lineage holder and part of the Mother Tree Shamanism School.
Together we explore why traditional shamanism matters so deeply for those of us living in modern Western life.
We talk about Eddy's descent into illness through neo-shamanic practice, the shock of encountering Mongolian shamans who can name events and symptoms with startling clarity and the vast gap between learning shamanic techniques in a weekend and stepping into a cosmology that can guide a herder to lost cattle so precisely. We also turn towards the forgotten role of the shamanist, the everyday person who knows how to live in balance. Kind of you might say a first aider versus the surgeon that a shaman might be and how spiritual hygiene becomes something deeply practical in the context of modern Western life.
This conversation invites you to reflect on the hidden consequences of modern shamanic practice, the longing for real community and what becomes possible when we return to a tradition that knows how the world actually works. And before we jump into all of that good stuff, if you've just arrived here, welcome. If you've come back, welcome home. And if you keep finding yourself here without subscribing your soul clearly knows what it's doing. Honour the pull and go ahead and subscribe. And if you're struggling with the challenges of walking your soul path in this crazy modern world and would benefit from guidance, kinship and support, come join Unio, the community for wild sovereign souls. Unio is the living home for the wild sovereign soul path where together we reclaim our wildness, actualise our sovereignty and awaken our souls. So you can discover more and walk with us by hopping on over to BeMythical.com/unio or click the link in the description. And now back to this week's episode, let's dive in.
Lian (02:17)
Isaac, hello Eddy, welcome back to the show.
Eddy Elsey (02:22)
Keep having us again.
Lian (02:26)
My pleasure entirely. And we are going to dive even deeper now in our second conversation. We had a conversation a few months back before the summer, we believe. And we were talking primarily, I mean, the conversation kind of went into lots of areas, but I guess if we were to sum it up, it was looking at, I guess you could say the differences between core shamanism, neo-shamanism and traditional shamanism and I guess why that might be something one might want to know and you both shared some of your own story and what brought you to traditional shamanism and some of the pitfalls and challenges along the way. In this conversation we're focusing more and it functions very much as a part two although I think absolutely this will work as a standalone conversation too. We're focusing more on why traditional shamanism is so vital for those of us in the West and some specific aspects of traditional shamanism that makes that so, so vital. And so that's, that's what we're going to explore today, which I'm really looking forward to. ⁓ And I've just finished reading your very good article, ⁓ Eddy, that you wrote for Sacred Hoop magazine in which you share again, some of your story and some of these things.
Would you like to start, because I know that you in particular compared to Isaac, that's, you know, his first port of call was traditional shamanism. Yours is quite the opposite, just like mine, started much more with a neo-shamanism background. What if you were to summarise, this going to be a challenge, I know, but if you're going to summarise why traditional shamanism is so important for those within the West.
How would you define that? How would you answer that?
Eddy Elsey (04:24)
It was actually difficult to make it concise enough for an article. I'm glad you enjoyed it. Yeah, I'm glad you enjoyed it. Well, it could have been a book, know, there could be so many differences. I summarised it into three main areas. One of those was community, which, yeah, I'm sure we all have experience. I'm sure all the listeners have an experience with community. We all...
Lian (04:31)
a very long article. And now do it in a paragraph.
Eddy Elsey (04:54)
most likely have our own spiritual communities in the West. So that was actually the most difficult bit to unpick because it's quite a nuanced ⁓ critique, I suppose, of neo-shamanic communities. Critique may be the wrong word. I don't mean that in a hostile way. I just mean that in.. sort of comparison way, what I experienced in Mongolia and since then training in traditional shamanism and then what I experienced before that in shamanic communities. And also tried to look at community as a whole in the West. When we say the West, I mean the UK really, I that's where we're all from. I'm sure it's sort of similar echoes throughout the Western world and in America but...
When I say the West, I sort of mean the UK spiritual scene. That's the one I have personal experience with. And how, you know, we can look at life from a more self-cherishing mindset, a more self-centred way, which sort of plays into our spiritual communities. I then spoke about spiritual hygiene, you know, we can call it that, the importance of staying clean and doing what we can.
Lian (05:48)
Mm-hmm.
Eddy Elsey (06:12)
to be as free from obstacles, at least self-inflicted ones. For those who've listened to the last podcast we did, a lot of my issues were self-inflicted from practicing the wrong way or in a way that wasn't deep enough. My practice was quite superficial and vague, I came to realise when I went to Mongolia and that had made me sick.
And then also talking about the difference between a shaman and a shamanist, because I think there's a big focus around shamanism in the West that is shaman heavy, looking at it from the perspective of being a shaman. You know, I don't see any courses available to just learn about shamanism in the West, rather than become a practitioner. When I went to Mongolia, there's a real cohesion between
Lian (07:00)
Mmm.
Eddy Elsey (07:06)
shamanist and the shaman. And so that sort of all feeds into one another because the community thrives when the shaman and the shamanists understand their roles and understand how they can work together. And then also looking at spiritual hygiene, the shamanist will understand how to stay as free from those obstacles we were talking about before ⁓ and whilst.
some sickness, unfortunately, is inevitable in life and making up heavy energy is just part of life. Understanding universal law, which we spoke about last time, as know, traditional shamanic practices are very much based around that understanding of universal law and how to understand the cosmos and how that works. Why that's so beneficial. And I think, you know, Isaac has more experience than me, but from us both working with people in the West.
I think a lot of those issues similar to mine are self-inflicted and could be avoided and understanding life from a traditional shamanic viewpoint can be very beneficial. So lots to speak about.
Lian (08:19)
Thank you, Eddy. That's such a great summary. And I feel like you've just done my job for me. So thank you very much for that.
Eddy Elsey (08:26)
You're welcome.
Lian (08:29)
It really occurred to me, actually two things occurred to me listening to you. One was that as you touched upon when you talking about community with so much of this conversation and the topics we're talking about, it's so easy to hear it. and think, oh, I know what that means. I know community, I've got community, or I know what spiritual hygiene is, I've got spiritual hygiene. And it seems to me, part of the task of this conversation is to really be able to tease out those nuances and distinctions where it's like, yes, it's community, but not as you know it. It feels like that's going to be quite a theme of this conversation. That that feels an important thing to me, even mention up front, because already, again, I'm sure listeners will be kind of thinking, yep, I've got that, I've got that. And my invitation would be to kind of listen again, because there's likely to be more. speaking of my own experience, I probably, if I'd been a listener to this show, I would have been thinking, yep, I know, know community, I've got community. So ⁓ there's that distinction, I think, to make just at the outset.
The other thing that occurred to me and I'm going to, I'm going to say what occurred to me and I'm going to ask you Eddy, your thoughts on this. Although I'm familiar with this distinction between shaman and shamanist, as you were talking Eddy, something occurred to me, which is,
For example, I did a show with Nick Breeze Wood, a month or so ago, talking about the difference between animism, not difference, but distinctions between animism and shamanism. Obviously there's overlap too. And what I was thinking listening to you is, it isn't that shamanism and animism are the same thing. It's almost like shamanist is a kind of, a bit like a...
of animism, like in alignment with true animism and universal law. And I was thinking there's some irony actually that we in the West are so hungry for some kind of spirituality and we either kind of go headlong into thinking, I need to become a shaman or go to the East and, you know, study Buddhism or something. And I was like, It's interesting to me actually, it's the first time it's really occurred to me that actually becoming a shamanist is so much of what would probably satiate that hunger that we're feeling. I think there's something that would be so helpful, practical, applicable and nourishing in understanding what being a shamanist is that so many of us are looking for. And I heard that in a way that I hadn't heard of it before.
But I'm gonna go to you, Isaac, as to what you heard in what I said, and feel free to make corrections where you think what I said wasn't quite right.
Isaac (11:34)
I would agree with you completely though, I truly believe that Eddy mentioned about community, the fact of community and this desire to be a shaman go hand in hand.
Because when it comes to a practitioner, somebody wants to be able to sort themselves out, they don't want to have to ask for someone else's help, they don't want to have to ask for...
another person in their community to resolve their issues for them. They want to stand on their own two feet. They want to be independent. And it's this kind of independent attitude that is brilliant in so many ways, but it leads to a lack of community and loneliness. When it comes to Mongolia, for example, people are happy to ask for help. They're happy to go to a shaman for help. It's not that they want to do it all themselves because they know they can't. It's the entire community comes together to support individuals and that allows the community to flourish. Everyone has their role. People have their role and even if there are disagreements or fights within their community, in the West the idea would be again to push that person away and leave them alone but in traditional communities and societies they still support one another even if they don't see eye to eye always. So I would honestly say this is a big thing when it comes to the West's desire for shamanism, most people would argue it is to help people.
But truly people should probably ask and delve deeper into their own intentions. Why? Is it that they want to support their own family? Is it that they want to help themselves? Or is it because they don't want to ask for help from another?
Lian (13:13)
Mmm.
Would you, would you be able to define what's meant by these two terms, shamanist and shaman? And then I've got a follow-up question I want to ask you then.
Isaac (13:17)
You
So much as you'd go, so obviously everyone in the household, everyone, ⁓ most people in the UK I'm sure, has an idea of some basic medical practice. So like paracetamol for example, you take it, you've got a headache, hyperprofen, if you've got muscle ache. But you wouldn't try and perform surgery on yourself and you wouldn't try and perform complex medical procedures or diagnose yourself or prescribe complex medicines to yourself because you'd go see a doctor. So it's the same.
Lian (13:55)
Well, or Google. Or ask ChatGPT, but not that they're advisable methods. I take your point.
Isaac (13:57)
or doodle, yes.
But when it comes to a shamanist, it's the same. They have ideas of spiritual hygiene, they have ideas of ways to keep balance with the world around them and support themselves and their family. But they will go to the help of a spiritual specialist who will diagnose their issues and treat them accordingly. Or they may go to a shaman with a specific request and ask it to be performed. But genuinely, they will go for a diagnosis.
see what the problem is, why aren't they achieving what they want to, and then treat it according to the issues at hand. So it's the… the specialisation in that role, much like a doctor specialises in the medical field.
Lian (14:43)
Hmm.
And then how would you define, I may have missed it, but would you then define a sharp, well, I think you did actually, didn't you? So that's the taking paracetamol, knowing that kind of basic first aid and sort of simpler self care and versus going to a doctor or a surgeon for more complex.
Isaac (15:09)
Yes, but I would say with the shamanists they already have an understanding of the cosmology, have an understanding of how their world works around them. So they would still be able to mitigate or treat or avoid a lot of harms. When it comes to these traditional cultures compared to western cultures, the harms that we face are very different to the harms they face. And that's because they already have an understanding, a deep understanding from a young age is in their culture, so...
Lian (15:18)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Isaac (15:38)
entrenched in their culture that they can't literally as you're up if you're surrounded by it. So they have so much knowledge of how to mitigate problems or treat problems that the issues that they face are nothing like we are facing the West. Whereas for us in the West we may... a lot of people like... I've encountered a lot of people that go as if it's not... if I don't believe in it or I don't know about it it's not going to harm me. But that's not the way of it.
Lian (15:53)
⁓ Yes.
Isaac (16:07)
That's not the way of the world. Like, doesn't matter whether you believe in it not, the effects of it are still going to be there. A person may be wondering, why is their good fortune running out? Why are they struggling to get a job? Why are they constantly getting sick without understanding it? And these are the things that somebody would go to a shaman for. People in... we might not think it's a spiritual issue, but there's a root deep...
Lian (16:30)
Mm-hmm.
Isaac (16:35)
cause that can be treated.
Lian (16:37)
I'm going to go back to you again, Eddy, because I want to go to spiritual hygiene in a moment, but I'd love to hear your sense. And again, I know your journey very much has been going from, I'm training as a shaman, I'm a shaman. And then, ⁓ okay, perhaps I'm not. Would you share a bit more about that, please?
Eddy Elsey (16:57)
That's a good way of summing out.
Isaac (17:05)
Yes!
Eddy Elsey (17:05)
Yeah, for me, when I first visited Mongolia, I was travelling, I was the only Westerner and I was travelling with four different families up to the Dharhad Valley. And one of the first things I noticed during the rituals was that everybody, including small children, knew what was happening. They knew how to act, they knew what to do, and there was no prior explanation needed. It was just part of their everyday life, as Isaac mentioned.
And my experience before that with neo-shamanism was that not only had only quite specific people attended rituals or ceremonies, that the actual ceremonies themselves were performed very differently and people in the West were also very hungry for their own experience when attending, rather than focusing on the actual outcome of the ritual. How when I was in Mongolia only the shaman performed.
everyone was there, ⁓ sort of listening to the shaman who would go into trance and relay messages and listening and ⁓ wanted to see what the outcome of the ritual would be. Whereas With neo-shamanism it seemed to be more focused around on, you know, people would get together and everyone would drum or everyone would be part of it or everyone would sing and there's this sort of desire for the shared experience. And unless someone felt something in the moment or had their own peak experience, if you like, it was seen as, that ritual didn't really do anything. And I remember speaking to my teacher about it and saying, you know, this is very different. Have you observed this? and she said, yeah, in the West, often you only think something's happened if you feel something in the ritual. But in Mongolia, doesn't matter if you feel something or not, unless you experience
Lian (18:50)
Mmm.
Eddy Elsey (18:56)
true and lasting positive change in your life, the ritual hasn't been successful. And I think that, you know, I we mentioned briefly this sense of community and self-cherishing attitude. I think that's part of that maybe rearing its head as well, going to these rituals as a Westerner and practicing neo-shamanism and wanting this big peak experience, wanting to meet spirits or wanting to, you know, meet your ancestors or wanting to, you know, release all your trauma and...
Lian (19:01)
Mm-hmm.
Eddy Elsey (19:25)
and I understand those desires, but it's a different viewpoint. It's a very different viewpoint. And it seemed to me in Mongolia, it's this synergy between the shaman and the spirits, and then the shaman and the shamanists, which helped this shamanic culture to thrive. And, you know, like I mentioned, you know, A lot of core and core shamanic trainings in the West seem to be really focused on becoming a practitioner,
Lian (19:32)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Eddy Elsey (19:52)
you know, and I don't really think there's anything inherently wrong with that. I just think that if we are really to move forward with an authentic shamanic culture in the West, there has to be a knowledge grounded into our culture of being a shamanist, understanding at least the basic tenets of universal law, understanding what shaman is capable of, when to turn to a shaman, how community really works, how we can start to keep ourselves spiritually clean. you know, or do our best to do that. And I think, you know, going back to MTS, Mother Tree Shamanism, where both Isaac and I have trained, and I know you have as well, a lot of people who take that course aren't going to be practitioners in that sense, but it gives an amazing overview of shamanic concepts that benefit everyone's life.
Lian (20:51)
Hmm. In fact, I would say just speaking, I'm speaking personally, but also speaking what I've observed in others on the course. So this is my observation may not be strictly accurate, but there's something quite humbling that I've experienced where I think for many of us, we perhaps have come in.
Eddy Elsey (20:52)
you know.
Lian (21:17)
as practitioners or thinking, you know, I'm here to be a practitioner and that's what this training is going to be for me. And then over time, perhaps move to this idea of like, hmm, I don't actually know if I am going to be a practitioner in terms of doing this for others, but it changes how I live. It's going to change how I move about the world and perhaps how I practice other aspects of whatever it is I do for work.
⁓ understanding what I've been taught. And I think that in itself is quite an interesting distinction. It's not at all to say someone couldn't be a practitioner, but I think there is, that's what I've certainly noticed myself. It's created a real, ⁓ again, there's something humbling and sobering ⁓ that really has you look at kind of like what, were my ideas of being a practitioner and are they actually what I'm called to do or not? Or is this about just living well, living in balance, living in accordance with how things actually are? And I think that would actually be really helpful thing for any of us called to shamanism as a whole to experience that for me has been such a distinction.
Eddy Elsey (22:37)
I totally agree.
Again, when I went back to Mongolia and I said I was a practitioner of shamanism and I was asked certain questions about my practice and how I practiced and I found myself not really being able to answer any of them. All my answers were very vague. It was quite superficial. And
I know you mentioned your conversation with Nick Breeze Wood who's a friend of all of ours.
he's talking about know animism and shamanism and how you can't practice shamanism without an understanding of animism. And I think that's similar. So if you are a practitioner, but you don't understand the concepts that would allow you to be a shamanist, then I think it would be very beneficial to go back and learn those foundational viewpoints before you then practice. Because that's where I went wrong. I learned all these shamanic techniques, they weren't grounded.
I had no idea how to be a shamanist. So it'd be like doing surgery without understanding how, you know, the basic tenants of first aid work. And that's why I got sick because I didn't, you know, the basic knowledge was missing. So, you you can't build a house on shaky foundations. It all comes crumbling down, which I experienced.
Lian (23:43)
Mm-hmm. ⁓
Mm.
It's such a ludicrous metaphor in that when you put it like that, it sounds ridiculous. Which is probably what it looks like to traditional Shamans doesn't it? Like you're actually attempting surgery with no training and using golf clubs instead of a scalpel. It's probably, to extend the metaphor, it's probably something as ridiculous as that. So coming back to something you were talking about, Isaac, and...
Isaac (24:14)
Thank
Lian (24:26)
I think I might have this wrong. You were talking earlier about the way that what we struggle with in terms of illnesses, challenges in the West compared to Mongolia is different.
And my sense is part of that is a lack of spiritual hygiene here. So there's things that are being done in Mongolia that prevent certain illnesses, let's say, that we just have no clue about, therefore aren't doing, or we're actually doing things wrong here. Assuming that's correct. You're nodding, so I'm hoping so. Would you talk a bit more about that, please?
Isaac (25:06)
So obviously as you mentioned for yourself personally, from taking the course you experienced ⁓ maybe not necessarily wanting to be a practitioner but you experienced how things were going to... the cosmology and the viewpoint and the understanding was going to alter the way you lived your life and alter potentially things to how you interacted with the world around you. And it's the same with shamanists and both shamans, they have this knowledge and understanding everyone in Mongolia does. So from a young age the majority of people are exposed to it. So knowing those ways of interacting with the world around you, yes there's a level of spiritual hygiene because people know what to avoid and what not to. They're like what to do and what not to do in certain situations. So that provides a level of hygiene that we don't seem to have or don't have a knowledge of.
When it comes to other cultures, I can't speak for all cultures, but a lot of Asian cultures have this knowledge. And so the problems they face are very different to the problems we face in the West.
Lian (26:13)
Would you give some examples of that please?
Isaac (26:17)
So, for example, how we interact with the natural world around us. How we interact with one another as individuals. How we interact with even our very health problems and how to treat them. We don't know, we treat them by going to a doctor of course, but if there's a root underlying cause, we don't know where to go to seek help.
Lian (26:44)
And what might be some of those illnesses, symptoms, challenges that we, you see are quite common here in the West stroke in Britain that you don't typically see in Mongolia.
Isaac (27:03)
When it comes to spiritual practitioners especially, people making, people practicing dangerous things without understanding as you both mentioned, practicing heart surgery with golf clubs, people operating in a way that they don't necessarily fully understand just because someone's told them to, their life begins to collapse around them potentially or they may face difficulties, who knows?
It's different for every individual but there's certain symptoms and ⁓ techniques that are traditionally used to resolve these problems when it comes to dealing with spirits for example the tendency is at least from what I've not come from a core background so I can't necessarily say but speaking to people who have you reach out and you connect with many spirits that anyone that will answer. In traditional Shamanism that's not the case at all because not everyone wants to be a Shaman. Everyone wants to have an understanding, everyone wants to live in a balance, everyone wants to live a good life. And this is truly what I believe the fact that these traditional teachers are now teaching in the West office to us is that the courses obviously that are being given are geared towards being a practitioner, but also it contains every single part of being a shamanist as well, and how to mitigate and keep that hygiene.
Lian (28:42)
Thank you. Would you like to, cause I know you've got real personal examples of this too, Eddy, expand on the ways that you've seen this lack of spiritual hygiene, let's say, ⁓ show up like what, in a way that someone listening might go, ⁓ yeah, that's something that I recognise either I'm experiencing or someone I know is experiencing because I think this is one of those conversations that unless, if you don't know, you don't know. so it's kind of, although the cause of it is, Isaac, you're so familiar with kind of like what's causing these things. Whereas someone listening.
doesn't know necessarily that the practices they're doing are harming them, but they might recognise the impact, if that makes sense, the way that's showing up in their life, which again, you've got personal, first hand, quite extreme knowledge of Eddy, would you, would you be able to share a bit more on that?
Eddy Elsey (29:48)
Definitely, I think, you know, to try and weave it in, I'd like to just go back to what Isaac was talking about a minute ago, and I think in terms of, you know, trying to break it down of what, you know, people from an authentic Shamanic culture might experience that we don't experience in the West or vice versa. I think one of the big differences I found is when I have been in Mongolia, Shamanism is seen as a viable methodology to deal with all life situations.
from sickness to business deals, relationships, life or death situations, everything. And I think this is an important distinction because my experience in the West with shamanism was sort of a bit of a weekend hobby, even for people that took it very seriously. There was your life and your potential family and your friendship circle. And then you kind of went and practiced shamanism on the weekends or you had a little group that you would go in.
Lian (30:36)
Mm-mm.
Eddy Elsey (30:46)
drum around a fire with and you know traditional shamanism was born out of
Lian (30:47)
Mmm.
Yes, it wouldn't really be how you would, for example, live in your home if you lived with people who weren't in shamanic kind of, it weren't interested or weren't involved. It wouldn't change really how you'd be living your life in your house. It wouldn't really change how you were living outside of, like you say, being with your shamanic group or if you were working as a practitioner, the work you did. I think that's a… really good distinction but carry on please.
Eddy Elsey (31:23)
Yeah, totally. traditional shamanism was born out of the need to survive. It's very serious. True shamanism, as we explained in the last podcast, it's this science of the universe, this deep understanding of how the cosmos works, of universal law, and how to cope with the world, and all different kinds of situations that may arise from it. And because of that, It's very deep and it enables shamanism to be an essential part of life in general across the board. My experience with neo-shamanism was that people would often come to me as a practitioner with sort of kind of mild to quite serious mental health issues. This could be anxiety or OCD or depression. And maybe that was just me, you know, for the kind of network I had, but no one came to me with...
Lian (32:10)
Mmm.
Eddy Elsey (32:18)
issues with business, no one really came to me with, you know, issues with their marriage, no one came to me with, you know, wanting to ⁓ do anything kind of outside that scope. It was always sort of, I've been in therapy for a little bit of time, I've got this OCD and I just exploring a different way of healing that. And so immediately the depth and usage of the practice is, it's not the same. ⁓
Lian (32:37)
Mmm.
Eddy Elsey (32:45)
that it was a big difference I experienced and now funnily enough as I practice traditional shamanism the depth of the teaching allows it to be something where you can see your whole life through that practice you know how to start a business what to do in relationships what to you know how to you know heal
Lian (33:02)
Hmm.
Eddy Elsey (33:11)
physical issues, how to heal mental issues, you know, it covers everything. So that's a big, big difference. I think in terms of your question about my experience with spiritual hygiene, I my actual personal experience, like I mentioned, is I cause so many obstacles for myself by not understanding Really, what Shamanism was, the actual responsibility I had when healing someone, didn't understand when to do certain rituals. The rituals I learned were quite superficial, you know, and that's quite common across the board. You know, I learned what was called spirit extraction, what was called ancestral healing, or what was called psychopom. I learned those in a long weekend, you know, and then it was sort of, okay, off you go.
Lian (33:52)
Hmm.
Eddy Elsey (34:05)
And, know, granted there was this expectation that you're not going to master this in a weekend, but go and do case studies, you know, and I just opened the doors and left myself open to all kinds of different issues that eventually, you know, kind of just became something that became quite unbearable. And shamanism is meant to make your life better.
I think that's quite an interesting distinction. have a lot of talk at the moment in the Western shamanic communities about shamanic sickness is the burden of being a shaman. It's, this is, you your life's meant to be difficult, sort of the wounded healer. Now, that's a very common two words that's ⁓ got kicked about a bit. And yes, shamanism is a difficult path. And, you know, it, but there's nuance to all of those things that need to be taken into account. know, and me practicing traditional, sorry, me practicing neo-shamanism and my life getting worse, that wasn't shamanic sickness. And that wasn't because I was a wounded healer, that was because I wasn't practicing the right way. my concern for people who are practicing but their life is fraying and falling apart is… they may think that that's necessary. And my experience from practicing traditional shamanism is, you know, not that my life has no obstacles and I live in, you know, some kind of beautiful heavenly place, but my life is far better in every metric, not just for me, but for my wife as well. And everything's much more solid. My mind's more stable. My body's better.
Lian (35:31)
Mm-mm.
Mm-mm.
Eddy Elsey (35:56)
My practice is better, my life is better, my finances are better, everything is better because I have a basic understanding of universal law, not master by any means, traditional shamanism has allowed me to keep my life together, whereas neo-shamanism, everything seemed to be falling apart. So if your practice of neo-shamanism and your life is falling apart, perhaps...
Lian (36:20)
Hmm
Eddy Elsey (36:25)
You know, it doesn't need to be that way as well. That's an awkward way of saying that.
Lian (36:27)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, absolutely. An example just came to mind and this actually, I think is relevant to people who consider themselves shamanic practitioners, but I think kind of more widely people kind of just engaging in spiritual work. I had a client come to work with me recently.
and she'd just come from Glastonbury where she was working with some other practitioners and they were doing rituals at sacred sites in Glastonbury. And I didn't know that at the time until ⁓ she came to tell me about it. And I know now from what I've learned on the course that that would be an example of something that could cause harm.
But it's, not something that we typically know here in the West. And in fact, would have been, is often encouraged in forms of neo-shamanism like, this is a site with power, go there and practice. ⁓ and these are the kinds of things. And there's just one example that until we really understand the, there's a whole cosmology that explains why these things might be dangerous. That is really hard to just kind of like piecemeal learn.
little parts of. So I'd love coming back to you, Eddy. I'd love your sense of that, again, how there is these underlying understandings that allow us to be guided into kind of, you know, what are these practices that are going to help us versus harm us, that we just, again, need something like traditional shamanism, if we're going to engage spiritually, even if we're not actually, assuming we are for one way or another drawn to practise shamanically, spiritually, why we need that cosmology of traditional shamanism to guide us.
Eddy Elsey (38:38)
The sacred site thing is very interesting because I remember doing that when I practiced neo-shamanism. I'd pack my drum and pack my car and drive to a sacred site and drum and give offerings and I felt like that was a beneficial thing. But the truth is, you know, we don't even know what these sacred sites were used for. There is some evidence that they're ritual centers and I assume that is the case, but we don't know if people…
practiced, you know, animism there. There's definitely no proof that we had a shamanic culture here in the West. So what that religion or culture looked like. is guesswork. And I think for me, and I hope I don't offend anyone here because I am just talking about myself, if I really think about it, it's that cultural self-cherishing attitude coming out again of, am a shamanic practitioner, these are sacred sites on my land, so it's my duty to go and drum and wake the spirits and give offerings and something, you know, I didn't really think anything more of it. But actually… from studying traditional shamanism actually sacred doesn't mean go and you know touch it and you know invade that space at all it's the opposite sacred often means don't touch and leave it alone and have reverence for it and and leave it and that's from a culture that does understand how their sacred sites work so for us in the West where you know
Lian (39:59)
Hmm.
Eddy Elsey (40:11)
These were thousands and thousands of years ago and we've had three, four different cultures come in and put their stamp on this island since then. People are most likely best to not do shamanic ritual in these places. At least that's my understanding, unless they have a understanding of how traditional shamanism works.
If people want to visit them and see them as these cultural landmarks, that's up to them. But I certainly won't go to these places and try to awaken anything anymore or try and invade that space or try and get something from that space or feel like it's my duty to go and do so. ⁓ I very much have the opinion now that if something's sacred, it's best to leave it alone.
Lian (40:49)
Hmm
Yeah, and I think this is such a good example of the way that the more we have an understanding of an underlying ⁓ set of laws and cosmology, we're not kind of left our own devices to figure these things out because there's so much that then makes sense. And again, you know, I'm only scratching the surface of my understanding of those, but it has been really helpful to be like, huh, okay, that now no longer makes sense. Now I understand the kind of, ⁓ I don't know, the fact that there are spirits of all kinds in all of these different places. And I don't necessarily want to just wander around and be like, Hey, do you want to make friends with me? Because it's probably not a good idea.
These kinds of things are just, we again left our own devices here in the West without that deeper understanding. So I think such a, again, not something we know until we know enough to recognise what we didn't know. Coming to which, and I think this is, we're probably coming to the end of this episode sadly, it's yet again flown by. Something that...
I know that you spoke about in the article we mentioned earlier, Eddy, and I think is a big part of the difference between traditional and neo stroke core shamanism is the way that we and I think partly inspired by Jung and depth psychology as a whole have created this whole kind of form of shamanism based around symbology.
where someone might journey and they might see something and therefore it means this or it might come up in a healing. And it's a very kind of psychological way of working, which from what I know is very, different to traditional shamanism. But I'd love to hear what you have to say on that, because I know that that's for you one of the big things that's very different.
Eddy Elsey (43:16)
Yeah, and it took a lot of retraining, I think, in my viewpoints, ⁓ because neo-shamanism, at least the way I learnt, everything was focused around the shamanic journey and through that, language of symbology.
Lian (43:21)
Mm-hmm.
Eddy Elsey (43:33)
you know, as an example, you know, very basic example, could be, I did a journey for a client and I saw a tree and there was a specific animal next to the tree. What does that mean for the client? You know, what is that? And like you said, is this kind of depth psychology, Jungian flavor that's its way into core Shamanism. When I arrived in Mongolia, had a divination done for me and they said,
You did this on this time a couple of years ago. This is what's been going on in your life. This has happened. These are your symptoms. ⁓ you know, and I won't go into more detail, but everything was very matter of fact.
Lian (44:12)
Mm-hmm.
Eddy Elsey (44:13)
It was like an X-ray. It was like, you go, this is your problem, it's right here. And there's no arguing. And not only that, my teacher rang her UK student who's also on this podcast with us, Mr. Isaac Worley, and he did the same divination over the phone and got exactly the same results. Very practical, very factual. And I remember sitting there thinking, I'm in the right place.
Lian (44:24)
hehe
Hmm.
Eddy Elsey (44:37)
A, and then thinking, you know, the right place to learn what shamanism really is. And B,
this is amazing. This is, this is like real world application, which I think, and I'll pass to Isaac on this, you know, if we're going to ground an authentic shamanic culture in the West.
Lian (44:48)
Hmm.
Eddy Elsey (44:58)
Most people don't really speak this language of symbology, if you look at our culture as a whole, you know, and we are in need, I think, of spiritual practices that are factual and the answers are very grounded in reality and practical. And that's what true shamanism offers. As, yeah, I'll pass to Isaac now, he's had a lot more experience in that than me.
Lian (45:15)
Mm.
Just before I do so, Isaac, I would love for you to share more about, again, you have such a wealth of knowledge and experience in these things, which I think is rare. But I just want to add to what you've just said there, Eddy, because we have a natural… love of symbols, I think as humans. it's, I don't think anything that you're saying is to say symbols, you know, don't exist, they're wrong, they don't aren't helpful. It seems to me that they absolutely can be something that is speaking to our soul or our psyche, you know, whether we look at our dreams or indeed, you know, something that's come up in some other way. But the thing that's really hit me over the course of the course and in this conversation is, and it isn't shamanism. It's like, it's a completely different tool for a completely different job. And the way often it's taught in neo and core shamanism, that distinction is not made. And so yes, it's not a tool to say, let's say Jungian psychology is useless and has no place.
I know because I've worked and been, I've seen therapists from that lens and it's been incredibly helpful and yet it's not shamanism and it can't do the things that shamanism would do. And so I think that's just such a, again, quite sobering realisation to have for those of us that, again, love symbol and perhaps feel like, yes, this is shamanism. And it's like, no, it's not.
And over to Isaac to explain what actually is, you know, when we're talking about these very immensely practical ⁓ matter of fact ways of divining and working shamanically, would you share a bit more about that Isaac? And I appreciate you can't kind of, you know, divulge things that, for example, we're taught in the course, but I would love to finish with your sense as to what...
how we could define what's really meant by ⁓ shamanism in this particular aspect that we're talking about.
Isaac (47:45)
So, yeah, it's not to say that Jungian psychology or anything, or other modalities are bad or anything like that. But when it comes to how traditional Shamanism works, it's very practical. So I've seen my, for example, my teacher, first, one of the first times I met, they literally were able to tell me the items in my family's home. The physical items, it wasn't a symbology.
It was the literal items. Traditionally, this has been used for, and I've seen it used for these applications as well. A herding family may have lost their livestock. If they lose their livestock, they lose their wealth, they lose their livelihood. And it could even result in the struggle for survival for their family. But they go to a shaman and ask, which direction have they gone? Where can I find them? Because obviously when you're the middle of the open step, they could be anywhere.
Lian (48:40)
Mmm.
Isaac (48:46)
So it has this practical real world application from business ⁓ deals to love life to health issues as Eddy mentioned earlier. So not only is that the shamanist understanding and the shamans understanding of how the world works, but they also know ways of balancing or mitigating problems that may arise so they can live the best life they can.
Again, that's not to say that life is without problems, but it's better to know the reason that you have problems and be able to do something about it rather than encounter a problem and have no idea why it's there. So a good example would be, say you've got ill with an illness that you didn't know how to cure. Doesn't matter whether you believe in it not, you're still going to face the symptoms and the repercussions. So there has to be a real world example.
Lian (49:27)
Mmm.
Isaac (49:42)
And when it comes to the divination or the systems of diagnosing a patient, it's not just metaphor, because I've encountered a lot of people that talk about their experiences or talk in metaphor or talk in these symbolic terms. But that's not the case with this, it's literal. Where is the problem coming from? The physical real world problem coming from? How to locate it? How to treat that issue?
and doesn't matter whether one person does the diagnosis or ten people does the diagnosis, every person has to get the same result. It has to be repeatable. So I think that's a big difference because at least practitioners that I've encountered that are from a more western background in spirituality, they have a tendency of talking in this symbolic language and it varies from person to person and it can be so widely varied rather than it being direct point of advantage.
Lian (50:50)
Gosh, the example you gave with the kind of which direction of my cattle, doesn't that just really give you a sense as to like why it needs to be so practical and so clear and so specific? And again, I think we've so lost touch with that.
I don't know, we've been so coddled in so many ways and so detached from those kind of...
that how humans have lived for most of our time on this planet, like we have just lost touch with the need for this, A, the fact that it's even available to have this clear, direct matter of fact guidance. But yeah, there's something that's really hit me in that example. Thank you so much. Is there anything either of you feel is important for us to touch on before we close?
Eddy Elsey (51:51)
think just what you just said, Lian made me think, you know, I think, like you say, not that our lives aren't difficult in a myriad of ways, but Western life is quite coddled, you know, and we've replaced a lot of the roles of what ⁓ shamanism may provide. We've got, you know, great healthcare, especially for acute conditions. You know, we've got… certain securities and things that we're enabled in our life isn't as difficult as a nomadic herder. know, so I think through that we have lived in this false sense of security that our spirituality, it doesn't need to have the same depth. It doesn't need to have the same practical application because we don't use it for life and death going back to this kind of weekend.
you know extracurricular activity that you know certain part society might choose to engage in like a holistic therapy but I think if we actually look at our culture that is quite an ignorant viewpoint because we have massive rates of chronic illness we have massive rates of mental health issues which are growing all the time ⁓ you know we have massive rates of mental instability
Lian (52:52)
Mm.
Eddy Elsey (53:11)
And so we really do need practices like traditional shamanism that are practical, that are effective, that have proper, true real world application through diagnosis and then also through the benefits that they bring. And I think it is time that we start looking at spirituality in a much more serious way. And I think that begins in the shamanic community in dedicating if you're really interested in shamanism to understanding traditional shamanism and ⁓ you know, practicing spirituality properly if we want to deal with those issues which are endemic throughout our society.
Lian (53:44)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Isaac (53:55)
I would like to add something as well. As Eddy was saying about the weekend practitioner, when it comes to these traditional cultures, it's so ingrained in every aspect of daily life. That supports their community and even their compassion for one another is so deep. They will support not the people, they just they're close knit community. They will support the larger community and even
Lian (53:56)
Yeah.
Of course.
Isaac (54:23)
For example, ⁓ non-shamanic, non-shamans will support in whatever way they can to those people around them and not just their family and their friends. Everyone sees it as a duty to support the larger community. When it comes to, when you add spirituality on top of that, you end up with this ⁓ mesh of both spirituality and compassion.
Whereas people are caring for their community using spiritual methods and techniques as well to treat the ills of those around them. So a person goes to see a shaman, let's say, and they will listen to the shaman's advice because they know they will get pointed advice, they will get told which direction to go, what to do, and this isn't some form of dogma.
if the person does it, will notice every aspect of their life begin to rise up and this is provable. If they don't, issues come. And after time and time again, obviously families, because they've got a long history of this, they've seen the benefits, they've seen that it works and so it's got this ⁓ place in everyone's hearts because they understand the importance of it.
Lian (55:47)
Hmm. Yeah. Which we can, there's part of me listening to what you're saying that feels as though, wow, that's a hard message in the, for those of us in the West, it's not like there is a kind of easy answer to that lack of community.
It's not that we're suddenly going to be able to go, oh, now I understand it's really important. I'm going to go get that community. But I do think there is even just recognising the vital importance of that, allows us to recognise like, okay, there does need to be, particularly if I'm wanting to practice shamanism, I need to be really aware of how contextual all of these things are and allow that to guide what I do next because without that there's a kind of, it's always going to be missing these vital aspects. And so I think there's something just really helpful in recognising that these things are all sort of intrinsically linked. ⁓ I just wanted to share something actually before we end. as you both know, you, did a ritual for someone I know, and who I'm not gonna name in this instance, but you both know who I'm talking about. And it's such a great example of, A, the, I guess, efficacy of traditional shamanism for those in the West. But what particularly tickled me about this example is, This person is one of those people who just loves gadgets and health things and whoop bracelets and this thing to measure their health and that thing to measure their health. And after you did the ritual, their health has radically improved. But the delightful part of it is that they shared this graph with me, you can literally see, so the whoop thing measures sort of different aspects of their nervous system and heart rate.
And it is so magical. You can literally see where these numbers were prior to the ritual and then after the ritual. it is like night and day difference. It is a stark, measurable, really obvious difference between the two. And I thought I just wanted to share that at the end of this conversation as a perfect example of everything we've spoken about. ⁓
But so and also need to say thank you on behalf of that person who did ask me to say hello and thank you.
Eddy Elsey (58:34)
That's amazing to hear. got data, hard cold data, which backs it up. See, it's amazing. ⁓ lovely. Thank you.
Isaac (58:37)
Yeah, very cool.
Lian (58:38)
Yes, data, which... Exactly.
Yeah, thank you.
Isaac (58:49)
And
Lian (58:49)
And so we are unfortunately up on time. Where can listeners find out about you, your work, the course that we've mentioned, because I'm sure there will be many listeners that will.
Eddy Elsey (59:04)
Isaac, would you like to go first?
Isaac (59:05)
You can find me on ⁓ Mother Tree Shamanism is probably the best place to contact me and Eddy both and to look for the offerings that have been given such as Pilgrimages to Mongolia and an upcoming course that's coming in February ⁓ which is both another round of the course that you attended here.
Lian (59:29)
Wonderful, and Eddy?
Eddy Elsey (59:32)
For me, you can find me at EddyElsey.com or at EddyElsey on Instagram is probably the best way to get in touch. Yeah, if you have any questions, if anything that we said resonated, please reach out, don't hesitate to get in touch. Both Isaac and I, we'd be more than happy to hear from you.
Isaac (59:57)
You also contact me on my personal Instagram, Isaac Wortley.
Lian (59:57)
Wonderful.
Isaac (1:00:04)
But the.
Lian (1:00:04)
Perfect and we'll make sure all the links are also on the show notes. Sorry, was there something else you wanted add to Isaac?
Isaac (1:00:10)
I was going to say ⁓ the online course that's being offered as well is obviously being taught by our teacher. ⁓ So it's a really good opportunity for those who have listened to this and feel it resonates with them so they can learn from a traditional lineage hold.
Lian (1:00:28)
Yes, I'm glad you added that. you. Wonderful. Thank you so much, both of you. ⁓ Just always lovely to to you both and another rich, wide arranging episode. yeah, again, it always feels like we just scratched the surface because there is so much to talk about when it comes to this topic. But thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your knowledge.
Eddy Elsey (1:00:57)
Thanks for having us again.
Isaac (1:00:58)
and keep
having it.
Lian (1:00:59)
Thank you.
Lian (1:01:01)
What a wonderful show. Here were the parts that really stayed with me. Understanding spiritual hygiene and universal law can radically shift how a person moves through sacred sites, daily rituals, and the often hidden consequences of their shamanic practice.
Stepping into the role of a shamanist with a grounded cosmology and everyday balance can soothe that restless hunger to become a practitioner and offer a steadier, truer way of life. When shamanism becomes practical again, it supports real life from health and relationships to the tangible, measurable changes that follow true practice.
If you'd like to hop on over to the show notes for all of the links, they're at BeMythical.com/podcast/530
And as you heard me say earlier, if you're struggling with the challenges of walking your soul path in this crazy modern world, and we benefit from guidance, kinship and support, come join Unio, the community for wild sovereign souls. You can discover more and join us by hopping over to BeMythical.com/unio now. Let's walk the path home together. And if you don't want to miss out on next week's episode, head on over to your podcasting app or platform of choice, including YouTube and hit that subscribe or follow button. That way you'll get each episode to live it straight to your device, auto magically as soon as it's released. Thank you so much for listening. You've been wonderful. I'm sending you all my love. I'll catch you again next week and until then go be mythical.