How to honour the differences between men and women (transcript)

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Episode Transcript:

Lian (00:00)

What if the gap between men and women isn't the problem, but a path back to each other and ourselves? Hello, my beautiful souls and a huge warm welcome back. In this week's episode, I'm joined once again by Serdar Hararovich. Serdar is a relationship and secure attachment specialist offering attachment-based coaching and healing. Together we explore what it really means to honour the differences between men and women without turning them into prescriptions and performances. We touch on the gap in how partners want to communicate between dates.

Why anxious attachment can pile five issues into one talk and what withdrawal can really signal. We look at emotional safety in plain terms, the pull of projection and transference and how simple steady awareness can shift the tone of a relationship.

We look at what actually helps, recognising difference without blame, letting curiosity replace judgment and using relationship as a mirror for self-knowledge. This is a conversation for anyone who's ever wondered why men and women so often miss each other, felt uneasy un-naming masculine or feminine traits, or wanted a way to see those forces as sacred, human and alive rather than stereotyped.

And before we jump into all of that good stuff, first it's time for your weekly omen from the algorithmic oracles. Aphrodite sighs from her shell. Ignore subscribe and your feed fills with Dole mortals debating productivity. Subscribe and each week, soul stirring wisdom glides straight to your shore. Go on, press it now. And if you're struggling with the challenges, of walking your soul path in this crazy modern world. And would benefit from guidance, kinship and support, come join Unio, the community for wild sovereign souls. Unio is the living home for the wild sovereign soul path, where together we reclaim our wildness, actualise our sovereignty and awaken our souls.

We meet twice each month in our community guidance circle. So Jonathan and I can meet you exactly where you are. And with whatever challenges you're experiencing, whether that be relationships, health, money, parenting, to guide you to meet the material of liberation your soul is calling you to so that you may become truly free, living the life your heart longs for. You can discover more and walk with us by hopping on over to

BeMythical.com/unio or click the link in the description.

And now back to this week's episode. Let's dive in.

Lian (02:49)

Hello, Serdar Welcome back to the show.

Serdar (02:55)

Thanks, Lian It's nice to be here.

Lian (02:57)

it's fabulous for us to be back and diving in, well, more deeply actually, it's not like it's an entirely different topic, but it's almost like we've created a foundation in our first conversation and it now allows us to go deeper into an aspect of it. And as we were just discussing before we started recording, I think even just beginning with, I guess, some sort of like setting the scene, like this is the terrain we are going to journey through, which is one that in today's world, I think we can, well, again, we talked about these kind of polarities within polarity last time, and I think that might be a good way to start. We can either, in this modern world, be kind of overly reductive and simplify these kind of like men and women are entirely different creatures or the other end, they're not different at all. And what I would love to do is I guess start with what are we potentially going to journey with in terms of that terrain that has more nuance?

and I'll start by asking you directly, what's your sense as to when it comes to this like, are men and women different?

How would you answer that?

Serdar (04:24)

Answer that in the same way I would answer if someone asked me, ⁓ is Lian different to myself? And the answer is definitely yes. And so when we're looking at big categories, in which one is all the men in the world and all the women, there are definitely going to be differences in those categories. There are differences amongst individuals. And so there are also known differences between men and women.

So I say, you know, it's about acknowledging that difference doesn't have to also mean one is superior to the other. So I think that's important when we're talking about differences. The fact that you might have a tendency with a particular area in your life or behaviour doesn't mean that you are inferior or superior in some regard. And I think that's where the talk about differences

or at least one slippery slope of it is to go down that path. And that's why I think sometimes we've shied away from it. ⁓ But I think there are differences amongst people in general. And being able to acknowledge them in our lives, in our relating with others is important.

Lian (05:45)

Hmm. Okay. So, and again, I'm not expecting you to name all of those differences, but perhaps just as a starting point, would you show your sense as to kind of how might we describe it again? This is because we need to begin somewhere. I appreciate this is going to be, you know, overly generalised. But what might some of those differences be and why might it be useful for us to be aware of them?

Serdar (06:15)

Sure. So when I'm working with people, I don't frame this as differences between men and women because ⁓ these differences can apply to women as much as they can apply to men. But one example that tends to be more of a recurring difference is where, ⁓ at least with the people that I've worked with, the men that they're relating with So a lot of my clients are women and the men that they're relating with often have a different way of communicating between dates or between the times that they're seeing each other. There's a difference in how my female clients would like to communicate between seeing him versus how he likes to communicate between seeing each other or at least does communicate between seeing each other. So that's one difference that has come up very often in the work that I've done with people.

Lian (07:19)

Hmm. So that's quite specific. What might you say at a more sort of, I guess you could say general or archetypal or primal or energetic level?

Serdar (07:34)

Well, do you have a sense yourself as to some of those differences?

Lian (07:42)

I'll play. I guess the way I like to look at ⁓ many things is archetypally or metaphysically. And recognising that we can overly simplify that and go, ⁓ well, if that's what this thing is archetypally, that's what it literally is when it comes to therefore a human man or woman.

And so we need to be careful with that. But ⁓ at that, ⁓ I guess, highest archetypal or metaphysical expression of masculine feminine, we can see that the ⁓ masculine is penetrative and kind of providing in nature and the feminine is receptive and creational in nature.

And again, I'm talking really at that energetic metaphysical level at this point, but of course, we absolutely can then, ⁓ big part of my own studies is in the Kabbalah. So I might kind of sometimes gesture to that as I'm talking, as we kind of come down the Kabbalah tree of life and start to get into the material.

and start to look at that from the perspective of kind of human beings, men and women, of course we can see that that is also happening at that level. And we can see that in terms of the way men and women come together in sex, we can see that in the way that, for example, the sperm and the egg come together, with the way that a woman gives birth, all of these things we can see. mirrored in the physical. And yet again, it's not to be not to say like, that's all all that's at play. And that's the only differences. Again, these things can be ⁓ oversimplified and reduced. But I would say, for me, as an orientation, and as a kind of like living inquiry, that's something that again personally, but also the work I do with others is something that can be a helpful lens through which to look at others and ourselves.

So back to you. What would you name as some of those kind of like archetypal or energetic differences?

Serdar (10:17)

So it's not the way or the lens that I look at things to generalise it into that metaphysical level. I do look at it more to the here and now expression of differences like the one, the example that I gave, because that's just more relevant for the work that I do with people. ⁓ And so that's the lens that I take, which is that ⁓ being able to acknowledge differences

Lian (10:39)

Mm-hmm.

Serdar (10:47)

is helpful both sometimes you know women find it helpful to understand ⁓ or acknowledge those differences that they have from men and men find it helpful to understand that there are certain ways in which women may be different to themselves and then what it does is it fosters an understanding and a depersonalising of certain behaviours and actions so that ⁓ and it creates more empathy so for me it's about ⁓ less about

Lian (11:13)

Mmm.

Serdar (11:16)

having a metaphysical ⁓ sense of that and more about bringing it into the ways that it could show up in a relationship or in communication.

Lian (11:28)

Hmm. And I really appreciate that. don't think, ⁓ there's a need for anyone, let alone just the two of us to see things in the same way. I think there's real benefit in, ⁓ coming from a, a more, let's say practical material. Like this is literally what's happening versus, ⁓ looking at it from a metaphysical perspective. So it's not at all saying like you should see it this way. ⁓ and I think you've also named really well why it can be useful. know these things. mean, apart from anything she say, just like not taking things personally. This is, you know, we're wired to do that as humans, so it's not making that wrong and yet being able to take a step back and elevate and see like, okay, there's actually probably very little to do with me and everything to do with what's going on for that person. Before we start recording, we were talking about the benefits, I guess, of understanding the differences and because again, your orientation of the work you do, ⁓ you were saying, know, like, I'm gonna paraphrase here, so feel free to correct me and name it in your own way, but you were talking about from the lens of being able to have more harmonious, easeful ⁓ dynamics, those kind of, you know, the relationships, I guess, that most humans are looking for. And then I was saying, you know,

Serdar (12:50)

Mm-hmm.

Lian (12:53)

Yes, it's not at all. You know, I'm not a monster. not. That has no value. Who would want that? Yeah, yes. And what feels, guess, something that for me personally kind of calls me even more deeply into even having a conversation like this is if we were looking at this from a soulful perspective, a spiritual perspective, why might that be helpful? What might that allow us to see about ourselves? Again, if we see that so much of the spiritual path is to know thyself, what might we be able to know about ourselves through these mirrors that are presented by, ⁓ again, specifically the opposite sex? So I'm gonna leave that there for the moment. In... ⁓

In the work you do where you are, and ⁓ I believe one of your courses are called something like Understand Him. Have I got that right? Yeah. So just again, feel free to make this kind of literal and practical. It's completely okay for you to that. What might be some of the ways that you will name ⁓ things that are going to be, I guess, misunderstood about men?

Serdar (13:55)

huh. Yes.

Lian (14:14)

like those common misunderstandings that women have about men that could be useful for women to understand.

Serdar (14:22)

So let's see. So yeah, the communication stuff is huge, because you know, communication is what makes a relationship. so differences in what in how men can communicate, or at times not communicate. ⁓ That is often where misunderstandings occur. So understanding a little bit more about what might be going on for a man, if this is happening or that's happening is really helpful because sometimes women have absorbed ideas about what it means when a man does this or does that, whether that means he's an avoidant. ⁓ I've seen stuff out there where something that is just a very normal human experience is labeled a trait of narcissism. When actually that's something that's a behaviour or an action that I've experienced with women in terms of ways that they've

Lian (15:14)

Hmm.

Serdar (15:22)

communicated with men, they weren't narcissists. But when you look up like, what does it mean when someone does this? Nowadays, everywhere it says it's because the person's a narcissist, right? And there are narcissists out there. But when the, you know, preeminent interpretation of a behaviour becomes this ⁓ oversimplified and demonized version, then what it leads to is women not understanding what's happening in their relationships with men.

And when we don't understand each other, then we can't really love each other because understanding is where intimacy grows from. ⁓ communication is ⁓ one of those things. Understanding what might be happening for a man in terms of ⁓ when he isn't ready to commit. That's another example. Like what could be happening for a man when ⁓ he's struggling with

Lian (15:54)

Mm-hmm.

Serdar (16:18)

going deeper into a relationship, into, for example, a committed relationship, a struggling with commitment. What could be happening there other than only that he's a commitment-phobe? Because if that's the only interpretation that a woman has, that's going to lead to a breakdown of understanding, of empathy, and of intimacy. So if she can understand a little bit deeper as to what could be going on for a man beyond just that.

Lian (16:40)

Mmm.

Serdar (16:47)

then it opens up the space to be able to work with that in a different way. Because what could be going on, for example, is he might not feel emotionally safe. So this is one of those things where the conversation around differences actually has, at times, led people down a path to ignore the importance of emotional safety for men. This ⁓ is a way in which men and women are more similar than we are different.

Lian (17:10)

Hmm.

Serdar (17:16)

Some of the things that might lead a man to feel less emotionally safe might be different to what makes a woman feel less emotionally safe, but emotional safety is still the heart of every relationship, whether it's a man or a woman. So understanding ⁓ what kinds of things can reduce emotional safety for men can be really helpful as much as understanding what kinds of things help him to feel more emotionally safe and therefore,

Lian (17:29)

Mmm.

Serdar (17:46)

make him feel more likely to want to be close to you. That kind of thing really helps to be able to deepen into intimacy with a man. So those are just a few examples.

Lian (17:55)

Mmm.

Excellent. So if we take that last one you were talking about about emotional safety, what specifically are some of the things that would potentially have a man not feel emotionally safe?

Serdar (18:14)

So I want to be clear with this that it can be different for each man, know, what might lead him. But some of the things ⁓ that it could include ⁓ are things like speaking to him with disrespect. So that could mean ⁓ undermining things that he says. ⁓ It could mean ⁓ arguing against the things that he's saying.

like on a consistent basis. It could be using ⁓ words that are intended to shame. you know, there's a lot of words out there that, you know, even just something like the word selfish. So the word selfish ⁓ is designed to guilt trip other people, to make them feel bad about a behaviour. And so that kind of language

Lian (19:08)

Mm-hmm.

Serdar (19:12)

will reduce the sense of emotional safety that some men will feel. And, you know, a lot of men won't necessarily say, when you speak to me this way, I feel less emotionally safe with you. And it makes it makes me feel like I want to withdraw from you. But that can be what's happening underneath the surface.

Lian (19:33)

Just picking up on that word withdrawal, because going back again to what I see is happening at that metaphysical level, ⁓ by its very nature, in order for something to penetrate, also has a withdrawing action, you know, it doesn't stay one way. And the same for on the side of the feminine, there is an opening and a closing.

And so it was interesting to me that you use that word withdraw. Is that something that again, when you're working with women to understand men is something that you are often showing is kind of happening that is the, guess, beneath the different ways this can show up in communication, but it's kind of withdrawing at the heart of it.

Serdar (20:23)

is withdrawing at the heart of.

Lian (20:24)

I said that in a bit of a messy way. Yes, it's kind of like, ultimately, it's a withdrawal because of, for example, not feeling emotionally safe, but it looks like these different things in terms of communication or lack of communication.

Serdar (20:40)

it could be, yeah, we explore what could be going on. ⁓ And it depends on the on the situation that we're exploring. But yeah, that is one lens that we bring to it. And also, you know, there are other reasons that withdrawing can occur other than something that she's done. ⁓ So we do look at, you know, other ⁓ possibilities. And ultimately, it's about it's less about, you know,

Lian (20:42)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Serdar (21:10)

what might be going on for him, although that's part of, you know, developing this deeper understanding of each other as part of healthy relating. But more importantly, it's about, you know, regardless of what might be going on for him, what is, you know, the most empowered and secure response, given that you don't right now know what might be going on for him. ⁓ So in some cases, that's ⁓ being curious and getting clarity.

Lian (21:31)

Mmm. ⁓

Serdar (21:39)

So asking for clarity about what might actually be going on, which is something that a lot of people struggle with because it's a vulnerable thing to show that you care that much. to just be curious is often oftentimes something that both my male and my female clients just, it didn't occur to them that you could just ask and find out what could be going on for that person right now with this thing that you're feeling like it's happening because of this.

Lian (21:40)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Serdar (22:08)

But how about we express some curiosity, see what might actually be happening.

Lian (22:13)

Mm, I really agree with that. It's, kind of this forgotten superpower, isn't it? Just having that genuine curiosity and expressing that. it seems often that it's the, it's the last thing that we can typically do.

Serdar (22:31)

Unfortunately, yes, and that's a big part of why ⁓ a lot of conflict can occur between two people.

Lian (22:42)

Hmm. And so going back to the other differences that you mentioned around communication, what might some of those be?

Serdar (23:00)

So there's a known difference. So someone who's more anxiously inclined ⁓ can sometimes bring up a lot of issues at the one time. And so overall, and some of the studies show this, but others don't. But women can self-report as being more anxiously attached. So sometimes,

Lian (23:13)

Mm-hmm.

I think we spoke about that last time if I recall correctly. I don't know if that's when we were recording or chatting before.

Serdar (23:28)

Right. Yeah,

talk, you know, bringing up a lot of issues at the same time for a lot of men is a challenge to be able to ⁓ stay ⁓ on track. And I don't think that's necessarily a man thing. But it is the case for a lot of men that being able to, you know, ⁓ address multiple issues at the same time versus addressing them one at a time.

Lian (23:48)

Mm.

Serdar (23:57)

So that's a difference that can be helpful for some people to understand that some people, ⁓ and this could apply to some women as well, but some people need to be addressing one particular issue at a time before moving on to the next. unless it's approached, unless those issues are approached in that way, it's not going to be an effective way of actually addressing any of those concerns or issues. understanding that that's a difference between.

Lian (24:13)

Hmm.

Serdar (24:26)

that individual and the other person can be really helpful for them.

Lian (24:32)

Mmm.

someone who like, and I know that we're kind of grouping women and anxious attachment together here and it's obviously not as ⁓ clear cut or as direct as that, but ⁓ looking at that, what you said there about naming multiple issues in one go, why might those things go together?

Serdar (24:58)

Why does anxious attachment go with naming multiple issues? Yeah, so yeah, separating from ⁓ men or women because anxious attachment can show up in men and it does as well. Why that can ⁓ happen is multiple reasons, but someone who's more anxiously attached tends to have a higher degree of distress.

Lian (25:03)

Hmm.

Serdar (25:23)

⁓ in their relationships. So there's more anxiety, there's more preoccupation, and there's a greater level of intensity around the issues that they do have in a relationship. That makes it feel more overwhelming. So what can happen is if they don't talk about those issues as they occur, they can build up. And when they build up, sometimes it gets to a point where it's just overwhelming and it all just kind of comes out at the same time.

Lian (25:26)

Mmm.

Hmm.

Serdar (25:52)

So it's just ⁓ a feature or a reflection of the emotional dysregulation that's happening for that individual. They may not have addressed those things when it was more, ⁓ it would have been more effective to do. It built up over time and now it's all coming out in this overwhelmed distress and sharing it all in one go.

Lian (26:16)

Yeah, that really makes sense.

I feel like it's probably a quite a good place to segue. So as we were saying earlier, there absolutely is these very practical reasons for wanting to understand men, if you're a woman and vice versa, in order to create a more harmonious relationship. But I also would love to now take a look at this from a perspective of what might this tell us, know, what my understanding, what's going on and again, with all of the caveats we've been talking about, not to overgeneralize, there's also very individual differences, and so forth, and yet, what might understanding these differences between men and women provide us as a mirror to better know ourselves? And again, this can be knowing ourselves at different levels, this can be knowing ourselves at an ego level, at a, you what have I got in terms of healing work to do, but also we could then start to look at these deeper aspects of ourselves or what might this let me know about myself at a soul level. And so I'm going to start with quite a very general question. For you, what do you see as possible there in using these relationships and again it can sound transactional and selfish like I'm only in relationships so I can get to know myself but I think ultimately there is that at play. For you, what do you see as possible in seeing our relationships from that lens?

Serdar (28:02)

Sure. So there's two things that come to me when you ask that. So number one, ⁓ when we have this ⁓ approach where we're willing to understand with curiosity and non-judgment the differences that someone else has to ourselves, being able to have that attitude to someone else's differences means that we can then turn that kind of curiosity and openness and non-judgmental ⁓ curiosity towards ourselves as well. And often it happens in reverse. First, it starts with ourselves. The reason I can be so curious about you and to acknowledge the ways in which you're different to myself is because the ways in which all the different parts of me have a space inside me and I'm curious about those parts. That's what allows me to do it. But it can also work in this reverse where

Lian (28:39)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Serdar (29:01)

Because I'm so open to the ways in which you're a different human being and I'm curious about what that could look like that You know can create a blueprint for what it might be like to welcome all the different parts of myself in this much deeper way So how can I bring the kind of curiosity and openness that I need to have in my relationships? To the parts inside me if I want to be this, you know deeply loving individual towards other people

Lian (29:26)

Mmm.

Serdar (29:30)

and I do, can I turn that on myself as well and all the different parts of me that might really ⁓ enjoy receiving this kind of loving presence and this curiosity and openness to just discover what might be here without judgment.

Lian (29:48)

Hmm. Yes, completely agree. And also agree often it happens that we are able to be that way with ourselves and then able to bring it to others. But I think there is, there is definitely something where it kind of ebbs and flows. And sometimes we notice that something's opened up for us around that kind of open sort of loving awareness that we bring to others that kind of suddenly like, huh, ⁓ hang on.

There is something in me that until now I haven't been able to bring that ⁓ internally. So completely agree. If I remember rightly, I think you said there's two things in what you've just said. That was one. I think there might be another one.

Serdar (30:27)

Mm-hmm.

Sure. There's actually a couple more, ⁓ so, you know, ⁓ the ways in which we can project things onto other people, this is something that happens relationally. We might project part of ourselves that we don't like onto other people. And relationships can be a lens from where we're learning about the things that we tend to project onto other people. So for example, selfishness.

Lian (30:58)

Mmm.

Serdar (30:59)

can be something that we're projecting onto other people, as in it's something that if I have a particular relationship to my own selfishness where I may have disowned that or it wasn't safe for me to ⁓ take care of my own needs, and now I project that onto other people and I have a feeling of disgust about it and I tend to look at people and I think, wow, she's so selfish. That can be a process of shadow work.

where we're looking at the things that we tend to project onto other people and looking at, is this a part of me that I could embrace in a deeper way? So not everything that we don't like in other people is a projection, but this is an area in which we can use as ⁓ a form of shadow work, where we're looking at what are the kinds of things that I tend to be really viscerally

Lian (31:28)

Mm-hmm.

Serdar (31:55)

disturbed by in other people the things that really have a lingering effect on me. Is it my perception of their selfishness? Is it my perception of, ⁓ you know, how untrustworthy they are? Or is it my sense of whatever it might be or how comfortable they are with their sexuality? Is that a part of myself that I haven't fully owned? And ⁓ I now project that onto others. So

That's one way in which ⁓ relationships can be ⁓ a form of self-connection as well.

Lian (32:33)

Hmm,

Yes, that's so, so true. And of course, like anything can be overly simplified and overused where we're kind of constantly thinking kind of anything that's happening out there is a reflection of what's happening in here. And yet again, as a, as a orientation, as a kind of like, is this something? that is showing me something about myself, it can be so illuminating. In fact, we were quite an extreme example. We were chatting about Andrew Tate, not to go down that rabbit hole, but we were chatting about Andrew Tate before we began recording. And I was saying, I've been watching some interviews with him recently just to kind of understand, you know, what's being said about him and, you know, what's true, what's not true, but also...

⁓ really to see what that might be, ⁓ might activate in myself, trigger in myself, where might there be places that, it's helpful for me to have these parts of me illuminated. So it's been quite an interesting process for me kind of using Andrew Tate very consciously as that mirror for, for myself recently. ⁓ which, you know, I'm not saying. I would advise everyone to do that, but it is a great example of what is possible when we have that orientation to life and to relationships. I think you said there was another one, another thing. I can't think of a better word. What is the other thing?

Serdar (34:08)

Right. Yeah, the other thing, well, there's two other things. But one of the other ones is, ⁓ you know, aside from projection, Transference is another thing that we tend to do in relationships where we're transferring some element of our childhood into our current relationships. So, you know, I can have a client who really struggles with

Lian (34:20)

Mmm.

Serdar (34:34)

a sense of her partner not being present with her. And to a degree, it's what is, ⁓ it's a real thing that's happening in her relationship. And the intensity of how it affects her is also a component or reflection of experiences she had in childhood where she missed out on that presence and that attunement from her caregivers. So because she missed out on it so much, the lack of it in her adult relationships is really intensified and amplified.

Lian (34:51)

Mmm.

Serdar (35:04)

And so when part of the healing work is not just to say, okay, well, that's just your childhood. So, you you'll come to a point where you don't care about that anymore. It's like, it's not like that. It's First we want to be able to differentiate between how much of it is coming from your childhood and how much of it is just, you know, what's happening in the relationship. And often it's a bit of both. Right. So

Lian (35:04)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Serdar (35:29)

But being able to, or Being willing to reflect on what we might be bringing into our adult relationships ⁓ based on what we experienced in childhood is often a very rich experience for people, a very enriching experience to be able to grapple with ⁓ some of those ⁓ realities for ourselves to say, ⁓ maybe I have a really strong need for ⁓ someone to you know, message me every day because I, you know, my childhood, the love was inconsistent. And now this is my way of trying to create some consistency, but there might be another way of creating what the kind of, you know, depth of intimacy I'm desiring, other than it looking like this one version that my mind has come up with. So it can be helpful to look at how we might be transferring some of the experiences we had or the lack of them, into our adult relationships. So that's another area that can be really enriching for people, especially when they're going through a therapeutic process where is part of it is about uncovering what could be going on on a deeper level.

Lian (36:34)

Hmm.

Yeah, it's invaluable. was, there's a couple of things that you've said there that I really appreciate. The first was when you said, you know, sometimes, yes, it can actually be, it is actually happening and it can be past experiences with caregivers being activated within this. And so much of the time I noticed that things are often both.

You know, we want to make the, again, we struggle with complexity and paradox as humans. So often we want it to be the one or the other. And often these things are both. The other thing that it had me recall was a Werner Erhard, his name's like a tongue twister in itself. Werner Erhard ⁓ quote that goes something like, until we complete on our relationship with our parents, all relationships are about our parents. It's something like that. It's basically like we're just having those relationships with our parents over and over again. And I love that there is a kind of, again, it's really helpful in order to be able to have truly healthy, harmonious relationships to be able to have done that healing work or be doing that healing work. And There is also this kind of like, there is a, yes, that's almost like downstream, like it's great to have healthy relationships, but it's also, it's something within itself that is a value to know oneself, know where that work needs to be done, to be in that journey of making oneself whole. And I think this is a great, again, there's just so much in this where it's like, yes, ultimately humans are so wired for relationships.

And so it kind of is a way that we can harness that passion we have for the other, but ultimately in service of ourselves, in service of knowing ourselves. So great one. And do we have another thing?

Serdar (38:53)

Yeah, there is one last thing, because when we do this kind of work to be able to move through, you know, we do this self discovery, we learn about the kinds of dynamics that we're playing out, ⁓ that are influenced in our childhood, or from our childhoods, and we have the awareness, we're doing the kind of work that allows us to then no longer be in these power struggles where we're trying to complete something from our childhood with our adult partners, you know, and the power struggles that often occur. Once we're through that process, and then we actually enter that kind of deeper harmony ⁓ and deeper intimacy, ⁓ that's where a deeper kind of, ⁓ you know, that deeper, what a relationship can give us beyond that can also come through because

when a human being has that secure attachment with another person, which often comes, you know, it's just a lot ⁓ more stable and secure and feels safer. And so we can really settle into that relationship. Once we're kind of past these power struggles, what opens up then is because human beings need these bonds, and we need these relationships, there's something in our system that often settles.

And what often happens for people is they can really start to deepen into the more authentic version of themselves, both in relationship, but also in the world. Because now there's a part of their brain, their biology, that's like, OK, I have this bond, this secure bond that we all need, and there's something that settles. And now I can focus on soul work. Now I can focus on this creative endeavor that

Lian (40:26)

Mmm.

Serdar (40:45)

you know, I've been putting off for so long. So it, you know, that that kind of relationship and that connection can open the space for a deepening of that person's experience of life more generally as well. It becomes a foundation from which we can really be most fully expressed selves as well. So that's another way in which relationships can, yeah. inspire this deepening into ourselves.

Lian (41:18)

Hmm. Yes. I, ⁓ I agree. Really agree with that. ⁓ bringing it back, so we've kind of, I think everything we've talked about was exactly, you know, where I wanted to go, but bringing it back through into this, ⁓ specific lens around men and women, because what we've talked about is kind of like true more generally, albeit we do tend to, ⁓ project things to do with our fathers or men and vice versa of women and men's mothers. But bring it back into kind of like the starting point of the conversation around why might it be helpful to, and again, more than helpful, know, deeply fulfilling, healing, soulful, spiritually even, to understand these differences between men and women. Why was… pondering as I was listening to what you were saying just then was I... how can I put this?

when someone's been in kind of various sort of spiritual communities on kind of various spiritual paths, ⁓ there can be this kind of almost like dismissal of the human, of the body, of things like, you know, differences between men and women. And yet, ⁓ my own lens on this, my own personal experience, is that that's not necessarily, that again, depends on the lineage you're following. I'm not saying this is like what everyone has to believe, but certainly from my own lineage and my own experience, it can be the most fulfilling sort of soulful, spiritual endeavor to understand like how these things kind of ripple out into the material, into how we relate to our bodies.

how we relate to our bodies in relationship with another. Again, appreciate so much what we talked about is kind of very heterosexual in nature, just because kind of that's where we've gone as a conversation. It's by all means not the only way of relating. And so, you know, just talking again from my own personal experience, it's been, it's illuminated some of the deepest healing work, looking at places.

For example, that I've I've held sexual wounding that was like very specific to me as a woman. It would be different, it's not to say that men can't have sexual wounding, but there's something very specific to the kinds of experiences I've had as a woman. And therefore what that, you know, again, understanding myself in relationship to men has allowed me to understand about myself. where I need healing, what actually me being whole might look like. So I would love to know your sense on that. I'm gonna do my best to kind of name that a little bit more succinctly as a question, but bringing it back again to this idea of how we can know ourselves in relationship to the opposite sex and going into this kind of like, as you were just saying, you know, like, as a soul, as the fullness of ourselves, what have you seen, either personally or the work you do with others that relates to what I was just saying, how there is something very specific that allows us, like us as the wholeness of ourselves, involves this body we came in, this sex that we came in. I haven't done a great job of making that succinct question, but just do what you can with it, please.

Serdar (45:14)

Okay.

So.

Let's see.

I mean, you know, the thing that comes to me when you you when you talk about that is ⁓ I know that as a man, you know, I received certain messages from society and from culture around men. And it was helpful for me to receive messages about men that were actually positive. And so in the acknowledgement and where I first, you know, heard about those

Lian (45:50)

Hmm

Serdar (45:56)

that message that there can be something positive about being a man was in, you know, spiritual circles. I believe David Dada's book was one of the first, ⁓ you know, things I read that was of this nature. And, you know, I don't subscribe to his work generally, but I know that I found that helpful to just kind of look at ⁓ manhood.

Lian (46:13)

Hmm.

Serdar (46:24)

as a distinct and valuable experience and for myself being a man, being a, ⁓ you know, that being a man can be a valuable contribution to the world and the elements of manhood that can be valuable ⁓ in society and in the world. So that's what comes to mind when you speak about that. ⁓ Like I said, I don't necessarily subscribe to all of his

Lian (46:28)

Hmm.

Serdar (46:54)

ideas ⁓ and I don't. However, I found that really helpful. So that's what came to me when you were speaking.

Lian (47:00)

Mmm.

Yeah, I love that. And I do think data can be a real and is often a really powerful kind of door opener or kind of permission giver of like, you know, maybe there is something okay about being a man, maybe even good, maybe even beneficial. So very specifically, I guess, making this a bit more personal to you, if you're happy with that. What have been those qualities of

the masculine of being a man that for you have been really important in this journey of knowing and becoming yourself and follow-up question. Are there any qualities that still feel kind of like, ⁓ this feels like an edge. Like this feels like it potentially could cost me something. you know, there's stuff here that I still feel isn't welcome in my relationships in my world.

Serdar (48:02)

Hmm.

So I think it's important to just say that one of the ⁓ ways that I diverged from the polarity world is that although at the beginning I found it really helpful to look at some of these qualities, ⁓ or this was how it was introduced to me, being someone, the penetrative masculine as an example, the idea that something that I share could be of value.

rather than it being, for example, how I used to see it, which was the only association that I had with my own sharing was the idea that men are mansplainers. So that was my association. That's what I absorbed from the society around me, which was that men explaining things is bad because that's mansplaining. Nobody said that it could be a good thing, that being analytical could be a good thing, that having something insightful to share could be

Lian (48:45)

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Serdar (49:03)

positive and coming from a man, could be a positive thing. that's where it started for me, which was to say, okay, so being penetrative in this, in that way can be a positive thing, which, you know, I took it to mean that I could share what I'm seeing or what I'm noticing, and that could be of value. Now, where I went with that is instead of that being a quality that men can only hold, it's a quality that I personally hold and other individuals who are not men can hold.

Lian (49:21)

Mmm.

Serdar (49:33)

And so the direction I went was ⁓ to take it away from gender and to bring it into a full ⁓ acknowledgement of who I am as a person. Because part of the polarity world in that world, my sensitivity wasn't necessarily welcome in that framing of the world. But actually, my sensitivity is part of what allows me to be insightful.

It's my sensitivity to what I'm noticing with another person or in myself that allows me to be able to have a sense as to what could be going on for someone else. So in that world, my sensitivity wasn't necessarily something that was being welcomed and embraced, but because I had moved in a direction where it was less about embracing the qualities that ⁓ supposedly good

Lian (50:00)

Mm.

Mmm.

Serdar (50:26)

for a man to embrace and instead I'm going to embrace whatever is actually here now that allowed me to embrace my sensitivity. Now, ⁓ yeah, so that was just one of those things that has been part of my process, which is embracing both the fact that I'm a very analytical person and can be very insightful, but also has deep sensitivity. And instead of that being a bad thing, it's actually a positive thing for me.

Lian (50:42)

Mmm.

Mm, yeah, I love that that you've just shared. And is there anything that's that kind of, what might be considered a masculine quality that still feels kind of like, ⁓ bit edgy, is it welcome?

Serdar (51:12)

something that some people would consider a more masculine quality.

Lian (51:18)

Hmm.

Serdar (51:20)

I'm not sure because everyone has a different idea of what constitutes a more masculine quality.

Lian (51:30)

Hmm. But I'm asking you so it can be something you consider a masculine quality. I don't have to agree.

Serdar (51:36)

Sure. Well, this is the thing. I just don't see the things that arise in me anymore from that lens. I just see them as what is actually true for me and ⁓ how safe do I feel to have that quality expressed in this container, in this relationship, in this setting. And so it's more about that's just the lens that I take. So I don't even think about it from that lens anymore.

Lian (51:43)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Yes, that really makes sense. Lastly, ⁓ going to the name of this show.

If your life was a myth, I mean, I consider everyone's lives as a myth, not everyone does, but if you were to consider your life as a myth, what archetype or mythical figure might you be? And what is the quest that your soul has come here to live?

Serdar (52:41)

Those are great questions. And I feel like with the first question, ⁓ the person best suited to tell me that would be you or someone who is well versed in the mythical landscape. ⁓ So I would defer that to someone else to share that. ⁓ The second part of it, ⁓ from a mythical point of view,

Lian (52:50)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Serdar (53:10)

You know, one of the big themes in my life is expression. So I used to be someone who was extremely quiet and withdrawn and wouldn't share my inner world with anyone. And a big part of my journey. And, know, now I'm someone who teaches other people how to communicate more openly and effectively with with their partners and to be able to bring out what their vulnerable truth is. For me you know, crossing those thresholds of deeper and deeper openness and transparency and directness in my speech, in talking with people and sharing the things that a lot of people ⁓ would never think could ever be something that is safe to share with another individual and kind of taking my time to see what level of that as I get to know myself and bring even more permission to myself.

Lian (53:57)

Hmm. ⁓

Serdar (54:08)

how much of that can I continue to bring into my relationship so that they can feel genuinely nourishing and they can feel like I'm not holding back in a relationship with someone. So for me, it's been a journey of ⁓ full expression and the courage that comes along with that and the sense of risk that comes along with not knowing ⁓ what will happen. If I share this next level of truth, that for a lot of people would be a very edgy thing to share. But because for me, authenticity is one of my highest values, I want to go there. I want to be able to go there. And so that for me has been ⁓ one of the arcs of my life.

Lian (54:54)

Mm. That's interesting because when you said you would defer to me, had an immediate figure come to mind and then everything you've said only confirms that. So I was already thinking, ⁓ well, I wasn't even thinking, it just kind of like came into my mind. Mercury, also known as Hermes and Thoth, who archetypally is that realm of the messenger, the communicator, the thinker, you know, all of these things to do with kind of like ideas and expression of ideas. ⁓ And so that's what came into my mind as soon as you said that. yeah, it's funny, isn't it? How these, again, the way that our souls myth is so, so evident when we just start to

Serdar (55:28)

then

Lian (55:48)

get just a little bit below the surface. I'll be curious actually whether that's mirrored astrologically, whether you've got some interesting Gemini or Mercury placements. Do you know?

Serdar (56:02)

I don't know. ⁓ But yeah, what you were sharing about that did resonate.

Lian (56:03)

Mmm.

Hmm, well, if you allow me to, might take a peek at your chart sometime. Well, thank you so much. Where can listeners find out more about you and your beautiful work?

Serdar (56:20)

So the main place to find out more about my work is my website, which I believe will be linked. So SerdarHararovich.com And so, yeah, I've got a course that's coming up, which is all about the practical ⁓ embodiment of secure and healthy relating. So communicating in the ways that I've talked about, ⁓ being able to actually have those conversations rather than just knowing about them intellectually. ⁓ And I also do one-on-one work.

So people can find out more about that on my website.

Lian (56:54)

Thank you and really appreciate you. I really appreciate the man that you are and the work that you're doing. It's so needed.

Serdar (57:05)

Thanks, Lian I appreciate that.

Lian (57:09)

What a wonderful and much needed episode actually. Here are my favourite parts. Honouring difference deepens intimacy when we stop turning these ideas of polarity into performance and begin to really see each other with curiosity. Real understanding grows through emotional safety and genuine interest, not strategies or stereotypes.

When we stop performing gender or ideas of it and start living it as energy and our own truths, love becomes simpler, steadier and profoundly human. Of course, this is the work. It's not always easy, but it is so worthwhile. If you'd like to hop on over to the show notes for the links, they're at BeMythical.com/podcast/523.

And as you heard me say earlier, if you're struggling with the challenges of walking your soul path in this crazy modern world, and would benefit from guidance, kinship and support, come join Unio, the community for wild, sovereign souls. You can discover more and join us by hopping on over to BeMythical.com/unio. Let's walk the path home together.

And if you don't want to miss out on next week's episode, head on over to your podcasting app. or platform of choice, including YouTube and hit that subscribe or follow button. That way you'll get each episode delivered straight to your device, auto magically as soon as it comes out. Thank you so much for listening. You've been wonderful. I'm sending you all my love. I'll catch you again next week and until then, go be mythical.

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