This is why your soul-led business isn't successful (transcript)

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Episode Transcript:

Lian (00:00)

How might we create soulful work that is both beautiful and sustainable without selling out or burning out? Hello, my beautiful mythical old souls and a huge warm welcome back. This week's show is with Tad Hargrave. Tad is a many time past guest and safe to say is one of our favourites. Tad is a hippie who developed a knack for marketing and then learned how to be a hippie again.

Since 2001, he's been weaving together strands of ethical marketing, Waldorf School education, performing arts, local culture work, ancestral traditions and community building into this beautiful body of work that helps people create businesses that are both profitable and principled.

In this episode, Tad and I explore the hidden terrain where creativity and commerce collide.

The trap that so many of us as artists, healers and visionaries find ourselves in without even realising. Together we map the archetypal dynamics between the artist and the entrepreneur, uncovering the often unseen patterns that keeps our soulful work from fully flourishing in the world. Tad shares his potent visual model of collapsing and posturing, revealing how both are twin expressions of the same underlying wound and why neither offers true freedom. At the heart of this conversation is a deeper possibility, a marriage of the artist and entrepreneur within, not rooted in proving or hiding, but in composure, wholeness, a quiet trust in our own being. It's a remembering that our businesses, like children, are born from the union of devotion, provision, creativity and care. A call to let beauty be the ground beneath it all.

And before we jump into all of that good stuff, if you're struggling with the challenges of walking your soul path in this crazy modern world and would benefit from guidance, kinship and support,

then come join our Academy of the Soul, UNIO. You can find out more and join us by hopping on over to bemythical.com slash UNIO or click the link in the description. And now back to this week's episode, let's dive in.

Lian (02:28)

Hello, Tad, and welcome back to the show for, I don't know, third, fourth time? It's a few times.

Tad (02:36)

I think it's probably the fourth time, yeah.

Lian (02:39)

Welcome back.

That was a great timing the Cockerel in the background there. I love the rural sound effects. So the topic that we're going to talk about, that of the artist, entrepreneur, the trap.

Tad (02:47)

yeah, we got the roosters here on the land yet.

Lian (03:04)

My goodness, it's one as soon as, I can't remember where I first heard you talk about this, but as soon as I did, was without even knowing anything else, know, ⁓ kind of ones where you just like feel it, like viscerally like, ⁓ gosh, yes. And then as I've heard you start to describe that trap, I was like, my goodness, it's something that...

I've experienced so much over the last 12 or so years and I know it's one that ⁓ my community absolutely is very visually present to as well. So I'm really looking forward to getting into this. Let's start right there. When you're talking about the trap and the artist versus the entrepreneur, in brief, what do you mean by that?

Tad (03:57)

Well, the trap was a phraseology I came up with to describe this very common pattern I saw with most of my clients. ⁓ The dynamic that they got in to that was keeping them stuck that they weren't even seeing that they were in. And it was a kind of inner pattern.

And it was the water they were swimming in. They didn't even recognise that it was there. And so then no matter what tactic they chose, it was sort of seconded to the purposes of this trap. ⁓ became all the tools that they came up with became part of the apparatus of the trap and kept them further trapped.

Lian (04:42)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Tad (04:54)

And so the, realised that there were two different models that I'd been using that could be overlapped. And as soon as I overlapped them, that was when the trap became apparent. So if you could imagine a sort of chart and the, there's two rows in it. At the top, you've got the artist, the bottom, you've got the entrepreneur. And then across the top, there are three columns. You've got collapsing, composure, no collapsing, posturing and composure.

And so you get these six squares.

But if we focus on those first four of the artist and the entrepreneur and collapsing and posturing, you get this, these quadrants and. The top left hand side. You get this collapsed artist and that's the trap.

So we'll come back to that, but top right hand side.

you've got collapse, or you've got the artist and posturing. And I don't see this so much, but it's certainly a recognisable thing. The artist, I don't mean somebody who does textiles or paints or something, but I mean, the artist is this archetypal force in us, this muse that just knows what it wants to do and how it wants to do it, and doesn't really think about the commercial viability of it at all.

It's the healer who I just want to help.

Lian (06:21)

But it could be someone

who makes textiles. not to... I mean, it could be literally an artist, but you do mean it more widely too.

Tad (06:24)

It could be, yes, you're right.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

It's well, because somebody could also be in textiles, but come from a very entrepreneurial place and only be focused on making commercial stuff and not really driven by an artistic impulse. So it's much more about the underlying impulse. And yeah, and so then the entrepreneur, they're thinking about what's the need in the marketplace? What's commercially viable? What's a problem that can be solved that people would pay for?

Lian (06:41)

Hmm.

Tad (07:01)

those are the contending impulses and they are contending that the artist starts with the what and the how and the entrepreneur starts with the who and they're different. It's a kind of men are from Mars, women are from Venus thing. These are, yes, there's a lot they have in common but there's enough genuine differences that there's a lot of friction there between the two. And

Lian (07:24)

Hmm. But often unacknowledged

differences as in we kind of think that we should just be able to follow our muse and then, you know, build it and they will come kind of thing.

Tad (07:36)

Yeah, that's the impulse of the artist. Or if they even think about anybody coming, you know, it's just, I just want to do this thing. But yes, of course there's that sort of naive hope that if I just do good work, that's going to be enough.

Lian (07:42)

Mmm.

Tad (07:50)

And then collapsing is the very recognisable thing of people who kind of make themselves very small. They say, I'm sorry all the time.

very poor boundaries, they don't take up a lot of space, shoulders rolled forward and inwards, hunched over. That's the collapse. And also the people who just, well, I'll just give you a discount. And they're always giving deals and they never charge the full amount, over giving, which, and all of that eventually ends up in resentment and burnout. Then on the posturing side, somebody who puffs themselves up, so the most politicians that we see.

There's a kind of fake plastic persona. They take up so much space, they never apologise. You know, they're the overinflated balloon to the deflated balloon. And they, I think the fear that happens there is this fear of being found out,

that they're a fraud, which is fair enough, because they're being a fraud. So you've got these two things. And what I saw was my clients never,

The resistance is the posturing. I don't want to be one of those people who seems so fake. I don't want to posture. I've seen so many of those sales trainers and marketing trainers and they just the permagrenes always smiling. They just don't seem like real people. I mean, unless we're desperate, unless we are really in rough shape, in which case those people can become very compelling because they seem so certain the posturing has them come across as very confident in themselves.

Lian (09:00)

Hmm.

Tad (09:25)

And so, you know, on one side you have a real lack of confidence. The other side, there's a kind of overconfidence. And so when you put them together,

you've got this posturing artist who has that creative impulse, but also makes themselves a little too big.

Lian (09:41)

But as you said, that's less common ⁓ with the artist.

Tad (09:44)

Yeah.

I don't know if it's less common with the artists, but with my clients, it's less common, for sure. There's plenty of posturing artists out there. ⁓ And then...

Lian (09:50)

Hmm.

Yes, you're

right. think our communities and clients are probably quite similar. And so I was just thinking, I was thinking, yeah, it does seem less common, but you're right, out there in the world, it may be less so.

Tad (10:04)

Yeah.

Yeah. And then, you know, you've got the posturing entrepreneur. So that lower right-hand quadrant of the posturing entrepreneur, I realised, that's the one my, all my clients avoid because it combines.

Lian (10:14)

Mm-hmm.

yes that's like the sort of

bro marketer kind of yeah

Tad (10:24)

It combines both

of the things that my clients are resistant to, which is the entrepreneurship piece, ⁓ that kind of energy and the posturing. And then if you go the lower right-hand side, you've got the, or lower left-hand side, you've got the collapsed entrepreneur, which that does exist. But I realised, my people are the collapsed artists, meaning they're the healers and coaches who...

Lian (10:29)

Hmm.

Mmm.

Tad (10:49)

really just want to do their work. And if somebody else would market for them and the clients could just show up and they could just do the work all day, they'd be happy as a clam. They really just want to do the work and they're collapsed. Almost all of my people who I work with, that's the tendency they have is to make themselves very, very small. And so that quadrant is the trap, the collapsed artist. That's the thing that people tend not to see.

Lian (11:09)

Hmm.

Tad (11:17)

is that they're stuck both in only looking at their business through the lens of the artist, which doesn't work. Because if it's like a marriage where one partner is always telling the other partner to shut up. It's not that people don't have entrepreneurial instincts. mean, some have them more than others and some people really aren't cut out to be entrepreneurs at all. But

Lian (11:26)

Mm-hmm.

Tad (11:44)

most people have some instinct of looking at the world and saying, okay, how is what I'm doing relevant? What is the problem this could solve? What's needed out there? What's the commercial viability? But that part, I think, has been so maybe bundled up with the worst excesses of global cartel capitalism. ⁓ Main Street has been conflated with Wall Street. And you know, the businesses on the high street, it's not the same.

Lian (12:06)

Mmm.

Tad (12:13)

as Wall Street and the global economy has been bundled up with the local economies. So people don't make these distinctions and just entrepreneur equals bad. And so that instinct, I think, gets really shut down. that's my understanding that I've come to is our businesses are a marriage between the artist and the entrepreneur. And for most of my clients, that's a very dysfunctional marriage where ironically, the one that is

Lian (12:29)

Hmm.

Tad (12:44)

Yeah, it's the artist that is dominating in that relationship. And the entrepreneur gets no voice at all. And the entrepreneur is trying to feed the family. The entrepreneur is trying to take care of the family and they're just being yelled at and scorned and dismissed. And so that's one of the dynamics of the trap. And then the other is this just constant collapse. And I think part of that comes from, like, well, if posturing is bad, then here's the alternative.

Lian (13:14)

Mmm.

Tad (13:14)

Instead

of puffing up on posturing, I'll do the noble thing and I'll collapse and make myself very small. But collapsing is not an alternative to posturing. It's a twin. It's the other side of the coin, but it's the exact same currency. It's the same thing.

Lian (13:27)

Mm-hmm.

can I just jump in here real quick, because there's something ⁓ really genius about the way you've put these two things together in that, although I would use different language, what you're describing around those kind of two ends of the pole, often in say shadow work, it can be talked about as in terms of like inflation and deflation, or hiding and proving like there's different ways that this is acknowledged as a kind of

you this is a sort of shadow state. And like you've said, it's not that one's actually, one seems like it's different to the other and it is, but it's actually coming from the same consciousness, let's say. And I think that in itself is a really helpful distinction and understanding to have. ⁓ In fact, if, I know you've got resources around this and I did, I did an episode a few years back.

around is something something like the shadow pole. I'll make sure it's linked on the on the show notes, make sure your resources around this. I think you've done specific things on ⁓ these two states as well and composure. I think that's such a powerful understanding. What I hadn't had, and it's ironic, really, because I literally think in archetypes all the time. But the thing that kind of just I'd not seen is these like really distinct archetypes of the artist and entrepreneur.

And then overlaying this other these other distinctions, it makes so much sense. And so it's a lot. I mean if people listening, they're like, my gosh, I'm very good at visualising things. So as you're talking, I went to correct you at the beginning, because you went on the top right. And I was like, no, no, Tad, it's on the bottom left. I am really good at kind of creating a mental image. So a couple of things. One.

If have you got an image of this somewhere that we can put on the show notes so that people can kind of have a look at this as we're talking, and we'll make sure it's there when people come to listen to the show. The other thing is, it could be that there is a lot for people to kind of like if people are unfamiliar with these, like that we've talked about the again, these two archetypes, the artist and the entrepreneur and this distinction of these kind of inflation, deflation.

States. I think it might be one of those shows where it's kind of like take what you can and then kind of dive back in for another bite because there is a lot here. I'm just recognising how much is actually here if you're unfamiliar with some of this. But anyway, please go on. I just really felt like it was a good point to kind of illuminate. Actually, this is quite a vast landscape we're covering here.

Tad (16:17)

Yeah, I do have some images and I'll make sure to send those. Yeah.

Lian (16:22)

I thought you would.

Tad (16:24)

Yeah. So yeah, that's what I see is people are looking for the, again, if you imagine this quadrants of collapsing posturing and then ours is not the trap is it's part, most of the trap for our people, I would say is probably in that upper left hand. You're the collapsed artist, but actually the trap is trying to stay in those four quadrants.

Lian (16:47)

Hmm.

Yes.

Tad (16:51)

That's

the trap. Because then people say, okay, you know, this collapsed artist thing has not worked for me. And I went to a seminar by this posturing ⁓ entrepreneur. And boy, that was so refreshing because it's so different from what I've done. It's not collapsing and it's making myself big. And I've been playing too small. So I'm going to play big. so this is, seeing, look, I'm doing something different. I'm doing an alternative. And I'm realising I've been stuck in this starving artist thing. So I'm going to be the successful entrepreneur.

Lian (17:04)

Mmm.

Tad (17:20)

So they go into what they imagine from all angles seems to be different, seems to be the alternative to the thing, the genuine solution. And it's the same thing in the end. It's still a part of the trap because the posturing as you're pointing out is, it becomes another iteration of the, it comes from the same consciousness. Both the posturing and the collapsing are covering nothing.

Lian (17:25)

Mm.

Tad (17:50)

they're covering this enormous hole in the middle of us. They're trying to hide something that isn't there. And so the fundamental consciousness comes from the sense of inadequacy that people have and their attempt to deal with their lack of worthiness inside. then the trying to choose either the artist or the entrepreneur, that's also part of the trap because it's understandable that somebody who's an entrepreneur and it's not working.

Lian (18:03)

Hmm.

Tad (18:20)

they might say, I see the answer is I've got to be the artist and this entrepreneurial thing is somehow inauthentic and I got to throw it away and I'm going to be the artist and be authentic and that's what's going to make it work. But it's the marriage of those two. That's what makes it work. And it's getting out of the collapsing of posturing binary. That's what makes it work. But as long as you're trying to do it, whether you're like, be the posturing artist, I'll be the...

collapsed entrepreneur and any of those four quadrants keeps you in the trap. The quadrant itself is the trap. The collapsed artist is the most recognisable iteration of that trap for our people. But the solution is in this third column. And then that third column, there's not a, it's just one box.

Lian (19:08)

There will be an image of this on the show notes.

Tad (19:13)

I'll just describe it and people can see the show notes. we'll build the anticipation for these incredible images. ⁓ But yeah, So you could imagine there's just this whole other domain where you're not collapsing, you're not posturing. Because, know, collapsing, there's this hidden agenda. I love what you said, hiding and proving.

Lian (19:15)

Okay.

Tad (19:35)

Another way to say the collapsing is a kind of love me, love me energy and posturing is a you will respect me energy. And whereas collapsing seems like a lack of confidence and posturing seems like an overconfidence. When I think about composure is this third column, or you can imagine it's like if there's this binary line of collapsing and posturing like a triangle, there's a third point that's above them that's not on the same line.

Lian (19:40)

Mmm.

Tad (20:03)

It's not a part of the spectrum. It's something different. And composure, I relate to more as it's when people are comfortable in their own skin. It's not a confidence thing in the traditional sense. They're just not trying to prove anything. They're not trying to hide anything. They're just, this is me, you know? It's like collapsing is I'm not all right. And posturing is like, I'm so all right. And then, ⁓

Lian (20:04)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Tad (20:31)

you know, in Matthew McConaughey style, composers just, all right, all right, all right. You know, very, very cool with itself. And you're trying.

Lian (20:35)

Just an image of him at the top of the corner. I really love what you've just said there

because ⁓ I might call that, or people may call this actually all sorts of things, might call it wholeness or sovereignty or authenticity. ⁓ But I think the distinction you made there is all important because I've known the past when I've ⁓

shared this kind of idea of that shadow pole, ⁓ as I will call it, with students, they might go, okay, so I need to try get into the middle, you know, I need to somehow create a balance between them. And just as you said, no, the work is actually to come like to transcend it and come above them to is really is a move of consciousness, which isn't necessarily something we can kind of like, ⁓ now I now I see what I was doing, I can kind of like, you know, be all fixed.

You know, this can require, you know, deep work and healing, not always, you know, it depends on the area and kind of the context. But I think that is really important distinction that it isn't about kind of trying to find this halfway point between collapsing and posturing. This is a whole other space.

Tad (21:50)

That's my experience. And so then If you're in this place of composure where you're not hustling for love or approval anymore, ⁓ and you really let that go as your dominant drive and energy, and you find a way to marry the artist and the entrepreneur, that's where the magic happens. And...

What I've come to understand is that our businesses are the child of that marriage between the artist and the entrepreneur. A composed artist, a composed entrepreneur falling in love with each other gives birth to your business. And if that marriage is dysfunctional or utterly lacking one of those partners, you don't get a business. Nothing that I mean, could the entrepreneur create a business like a knockoff?

Lian (22:20)

Mmm.

Tad (22:44)

But if you want something really startling and beautiful and inspiring, right? Yeah, healthy baby. ⁓ You know, if you want that, that's what it requires. but in the absence of knowing that people just run around those quadrants. And I've seen it. I've seen my collapsed artist friends go to the posturing entrepreneur events thinking that's going to solve it.

Lian (22:47)

I was about to say a beautiful baby.

Hmm.

Tad (23:14)

and trying it out. mean, I remember a friend of mine, ⁓ Laura, who I knew and she was very, I mean, you could look at a photo of her and say she's a collapsed artist. And she, of course, it wasn't working for her. So at some level, she's sick of it. She goes to this workshop and it's all about this posturing. And it's so empowering for her, you know, which I don't want to dismiss in a way because

Sometimes you go to something and it's just got the other side of the medicine and it is something you need and sometimes we got a swing to the other side of the pole. So there was something genuinely empowering for her and ennobling and fed to something that hadn't been fed for a long time. ⁓ she just swung to the other side of the pole and she said, okay, I'm going to do this tactic. And so she did a little workshop in her living room and she used all of the tactics on her friends and family, you know, who came.

Lian (23:45)

Mmm.

Yes. ⁓

Tad (24:10)

and colleagues and at the end they looked at her said, Laura, what happened to you? And she was so mortified because the manipulation had been so transparent and she just collapsed immediately. Ran back into her collapsed artist corner and licked her wounds. But this is what happens is people will, I've seen it with so many people, they'll flip to the other side.

Lian (24:18)

Mmm.

⁓ bless her.

Mmm

Tad (24:38)

And then

it doesn't work. And then that's so heartbreaking because then what else is there? What is the other alternative? If the thing that was the alternative doesn't work, it can feel hopeless. But because people don't see, no, it's all inside the trap. It's like you went from one jail cell to another jail cell and you thought you were free because you got out of your jail cell. And this jail cell is a different color and it's different furniture and it looks different. And you think that's freedom.

Lian (24:50)

Yeah.

Tad (25:05)

but it's just another iteration of your capture.

Lian (25:11)

Gosh, there's a, this is one of those episodes where I'm like, why didn't we save this until we had more time, Tad? There's so much here. We could do a, we could do a follow up episode, I think just diving deeper into this, but making the most of the time we've got. What I'm, What I'd like to know is,

would you say this dichotomy between,

Just focusing for the moment on those two archetypes, the artist and entrepreneur. Would you say this is like a modern day thing? You know, is this something that's only now kind of arising in this modern culture? Or do you see that it's something kind of more ancient and human?

Tad (25:58)

I think it's, um I think this is old. Yeah. I don't think this is a new.

dynamic, but I think it's never been this exacerbated. ⁓ But I don't think collapse and posturing are new. I think that's been with humans forever. And in a functional culture, there's less, it's less ⁓ prone, but I humans have probably always been born prone one way or the other.

Lian (26:21)

Yes.

Hmm.

Tad (26:32)

And if you have a functioning

Lian (26:33)

Yeah.

Tad (26:33)

culture that affirms your fundamental worthiness in a million and myriad ways as you grow up, then you tend to be more composed. You know, that could be its own whole conversation of what are all the ways that culture sets you up to be composed so you don't need to posture or collapse in order to get your needs met. But in modern society, of course, the fabric

Lian (26:41)

Hmm.

Tad (27:00)

of any sort of village or clan or culture that might do that job, it's gone. And it's being replaced with AI and virtual everything. So we're in rough shape. And the artist and the entrepreneur, I think that's old too, because I I tend to look at entrepreneurs as the modern day

Lian (27:08)

Hmm.

Tad (27:30)

hunters or gatherers, you know they're the ones who are feeding the tribe. They're the ones who

Lian (27:33)

Hmm.

Tad (27:38)

taking care of the needs of provision. They're the problem solvers. It is a kind of energy, and my guess is certain people are born with it and some aren't. It's, I think there are some people who functionally can be entrepreneurs and some who just can't. Some are not built that way, It's not their.

that archetype is just way too weak in them. And it's no shame at all. It's just that's probably how it is. And then the artist, that creative impulse, there's some people that just have more of this eye for making beauty than others. And I think that's probably always been true. It's in various tribes, you know, when kids would be born, I think the elders were looking at the kids to think what role is this

Lian (28:17)

Mmm.

Tad (28:26)

child going to play? What gifts do they have to bring? And some of them are just probably more naturally going to be hunters. Some of them are more naturally going to be beauty makers and you want people to play to their strengths. And of course, there's more than those two roles, certainly. But so I think it's old. the one at the level of the artist, we've become so deeply confused about beauty ⁓ in modern society. We

Beauty has become besmirched. It's become synonymous with vanity so that whenever you hear stories about sleeping beauty or these folk tales about the beautiful princess, instead of it filling us with delight that that kind of beauty exists in the world, women in particular are filled with a kind of anger that is completely understandable given the insane beauty standards of our time.

and the pressure that women are put under and, you know, unarticulated expectations and obligations and just all the ways that beauty and the beauty industry and the synthetic approach to beauty has been used to hurt women in particular. And so you've got that on one side. And then with ⁓ this entrepreneur,

this instinct for solving problems and provision, which is a very beautiful human instinct, has then been conflated, as I said at the beginning, with this kind of globalised, monocultured, faceless corporate lunge towards unending profits, this hungry ghost. And so on both sides, there's a very wounded relationship with those archetypes.

Lian (30:06)

Mmm.

Tad (30:18)

We want to avoid the artist thing because the beauty just seems like vanity and we want to avoid the entrepreneur because that just seems like self-seeking, know, profiteering.

And so then if you get that plus the wounded psyche that leaves us either impostering or collapsing, it's, you see what I'm saying? Then it doesn't matter what tactic you go for. If you're in those quadrants, you could go to all the best marketing workshops. You could learn tactics that really do work and they just won't work for you because none of these tactics work.

Lian (30:54)

Hmm. ⁓

Tad (30:57)

if you're collapsing or posturing. They're all hamstrung by that energy because those two energies are fundamentally repulsive to people. ⁓ But the challenges for, I think you're in my people, they look at collapse as more noble because that, well, you see the posturing is the inauthentic thing, but I'm really nice. And it's like, ⁓ so nice guys are honest and never manipulative. And the good girl.

Lian (31:05)

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Tad (31:25)

is this is an appealing energy to the world. This lands as somebody you want to entrust with things. But that's the, you know, what we've come to and those energies don't work. The collapsed energy is just as repulsive to people as the posturing is. you know, nothing in those quadrants work. then so people get lost at that level of, well, what's the strategy? What's the tactic?

Lian (31:43)

Mm-hmm.

Tad (31:55)

What's the fix that is gonna help me make some income, help me make this business work? It's like, you won't find the Yeah, the fix is not inside those four quadrants. You can't find it there at all.

Lian (31:57)

Hmm.

Yeah, or do I just give up and go get a job?

Hmm. Whoa, there's so much in what you've just shared. So.

The whole kind of theme of beauty is something that ⁓ has been somewhat of a devotion and contemplation for me for more consciously probably the last 10 years, but really kind of, you know, as these things are, you know, we connect the dots looking backwards, I realised it's kind of been present most of my life. And I've just literally this week finished teaching a 10 week course, all about beauty. And

so I could speak endlessly and really so much what you said. really agree with like the, set out thinking it was kind of, you know, like, it's going to be really interesting guiding a group of women into this kind of, you know, really deep contemplation around beauty. And then it was just like, it goes to depth of our wounds, you know, like our wounds as women, for all the reasons you've said, it's, there's so much in that kind of, and it's,

As I've come to see it, our relationship with beauty is our relationship to everything, is a relationship to ourselves, is a relationship to the divine, is a relationship to the land. hearing you talk about it through the lens that you were, was like, oh my gosh, no wonder, you we are in this kind of collapsed state of the artist. I hadn't really made that connection between kind of my work with beauty and the artist, but it makes so much sense.

Tad (33:33)

Yeah.

Lian (33:51)

And then on the other side, what you were saying there about the entrepreneur and that kind of, hunter, there was just something like my heart just opened to this like, oh my gosh, there is just something so like noble about that. So it kind of like, I feel quite tearful thinking of it like this, where we can be so disparaging to that part in ourselves and in others. And you're like, oh my gosh, it's like, you know, really wanting just the tribe to survive.

There was something about that that just really, really put this into perspective. I'm so glad I asked you that question about whether this is ancient or not. And it's like, yes, of course it is. And I think there's something helpful about recognising that these are really needed ⁓ archetypes and ⁓ I guess urges within us as humans.

So I'm gonna ask you one more quick question and then I suppose I really want to kind of end with something that's, you know, hopeful and helpful because I, you know, as much as I kind of don't think we're gonna just get straight out of the trap, I think I'd like to sort of help us move in some direction ⁓ out of it.

Tad (34:59)

Well, if I could jump in with a couple of things here. One is the first way out of the trap is you have to see you're in the trap. I mean, I think it was.

Lian (35:01)

Mm-hmm.

Mmm. Which I'm sure

everyone listening is going to have done that.

Tad (35:14)

Well, I don't know

if that's true. It's that people have really seen it. I mean, maybe after listening, the eyes are starting to open a little bit, until... Sure.

Lian (35:17)

Really?

Can I ask you a question before you go on?

the question I was going to ask you, I think might help people see if they are. And there's two different, I'm going to ask both together for speed. I think when I've heard you talk about the artist, there seemed to be somewhat of a conflation between the artist and the hippie. And I wonder if there is...

Tad (35:50)

Okay.

Lian (35:52)

you know, you see them as one of the same, or it's just because your people tend to be one of the same, as in your people tend really are the hippie for obvious reasons, and therefore they are the artist. And the other aspects of this that I've been pondering is probably similar to yours, actually, many of my, my community are healers. And some are kind of like, you know, very much that archetypal healer, you know,

they might maybe shamans, for example, where there isn't so much of a kind of obvious sense of, know, I charge money for this, you know, I've, I've, I do shamanic healings myself, I've got ⁓ friends from the shamanic community of all kinds, you know, traditional lineages and all sorts. And there's all different kinds of, you know, very traditional views on whether you charge or not what you do charge for. And

That also I'm seeing now, I think you would agree, but I want to ask you directly, is this the artist too? In which case it kind of brings this other challenge because it's kind of like, ⁓ you know, these are roles that there isn't a clear cut kind of, ⁓ you know, how you make a business out of this. So I'm just going to throw that over to you because I think your answer to this might help people identify if indeed they are in the trap.

Tad (37:15)

Sure. So, yeah, I don't see the hippie and the artist as the same thing. I think the hippie is a particular psychographic, it's a loose way of saying people who care about the earth and are, you know, into holistic things generally. And I mean, is the artist and the healer the same archetype? Probably not identical.

Lian (37:17)

So there's a lot there, but hopefully that made sense.

Tad (37:44)

But I overlap them a bit or put them in this because it's fundamentally there's one energy that's driven by I just want to do what I want to do. And another who's I really want to solve problems and the healer could be both the healer could be driven by both energies could be like, I just love this healing thing and a healer could be driven by I see there's this particular need in my community and I'm gonna go solve it and

Lian (38:11)

Hmm.

Tad (38:13)

So both energies are probably there within that archetype. So we could imagine the whole all four quadrants could be the healer and the healer may show up in different ways. In terms of the pricing piece, well, yeah, you know, there's a lot of tribes that I'm aware of where you just don't charge for ceremony or for healing, but also those tribes.

Lian (38:23)

Mmm.

Hmm.

Tad (38:41)

in my experience or understanding, to operate on a gift economy. So it's not that you don't pay, it's that it's not money, but there's protocol. You absolutely bring things to the healer and that could be chickens, there are gifts that are given. So there's no price tag on it, but you bring gifts to the one who's going to be offering the healing.

Lian (38:53)

Mm.

Tad (39:06)

So the notion that there'd be no reciprocity, that you just receive healing and then go on your merry way, that would be, I think, anathema to those cultures. But now we're in a modern society where, number one, there's not much real community at all. ⁓ And number two, those understandings are gone. And so then, what do you do if you're, you know, born into these times?

Lian (39:14)

Hmm.

Tad (39:35)

You know, I imagine, let's just say you, your soul was a great healer from some past tribe in your lineage. And then you're born into these times with the memory of those times. And you remember, oh, okay, I would heal. Then people would bring me gifts and they would feed me and they would, you know, just bring me food and take care of me and make sure that I was well provisioned. And in fact, nobody got paid in the tribe. We all just shared with each other and it was this gift economy. But now,

Lian (39:46)

Mm.

Tad (40:04)

I find myself alive in these times where all of that's gone, none of it's present, and what do I do? And I don't know. That's above my pay grade, but this is the very real dynamic we find ourselves in. especially, so you're a healer. You're born in these times. You remember everything from your past life as a big healer in a tribe with a gift economy into a time where it isn't there.

Lian (40:13)

Mmm.

Tad (40:35)

And you see not just are you born into a different time where those things have been forgotten, but the need for healing is greater than it was during your times. You look around at these modern times and you say, my God, these people are sicker. I've never in my worst nightmares, when I was alive in my tribe at my time, I never even dreamed that a society could be this sick. So my gifts as a healer are more deeply needed than ever before. And yet,

Lian (40:44)

Mmm.

Tad (41:04)

The protocols I understand tell me that I can't receive money or payment for this or, and so what do I do? I mean, I would just say that's the question that we're all entrusted with now is if in some part of your bone memory, there's that ⁓ collision of worlds and there's a memory of something different and something before this and you're trying to

Lian (41:19)

Hmm.

Tad (41:34)

grapple with it. mean, just, you my hat off to you for even trying to grapple with it. And many people are finding different things. You know, I do the pay what you can at my workshops. Some people do a gift thing. There's a lot of ways that people are contending with it. And I don't know the answer. I just know that's a it's a good question.

Lian (41:57)

Thank you and I really appreciate the honouring of that, that you have. I think it's one that is at all easily answered, I think as you say, it's a kind of, it's the work and the contemplation for all of us. Anyway.

I know that we need to bring this to a close. So I interrupted you just as you're about to kind of illuminate the way out of the trap.

Tad (42:30)

Well, I would say that perhaps part of the entrustment is that there's no globalised answer for it. That if we're on our way back to some more place-based...

you know, very loosely stated indigenous understanding of things, then the solutions have to be specific to the times and places you find yourself in. Even the hankering after a globalised answer becomes a part of the trap, becomes a part of the modern trap of here's the one size fits all answer that I can buy off a rack and Amazon can ship me right to my door that maybe there's something we have to look at our lives.

Lian (43:04)

Oof, yes!

Tad (43:17)

We have to look at the community or lack of community we find ourselves in. And then we have to say, okay, not what does the global situation ask of me? What does this specific situation at this time and this place with my gifts and my nature and these people, what does that all ask of me? And then you come up with a creative solution for that, which then may inspire other people to find their own iterations and versions of it.

Lian (43:49)

You just gave me all the tears and chills at once. It's a... my gosh. ⁓ Please do if you can squeeze it in.

Tad (43:59)

I do have one last thing I want to maybe tie this together.

So my work over the last year I've realised comes down to these three things, ethics, effectiveness and beauty. Ethics meaning the willingness to tend to the web of goodwill and relationships between us. Effectiveness meaning it has to work and it actually has to do the job. know, Hunter has to produce food.

Lian (44:28)

Hmm.

Tad (44:30)

It has to be effective. And what I've come to understand is that ethics and effectiveness are the kind of two core fundamentals. Everything else in terms of building a successful business comes off of those two. And you say, but wait, Ted, you said there's two fundamentals, but you said three things. You said ethics, effectiveness and beauty. ⁓ So isn't beauty the third fundamental? And I'd say, no, beauty is the fundament.

Lian (44:44)

Mm-hmm.

Tad (44:59)

Beauty is the thing. Beauty is the ground that all of it's based on. And that's, as you said, that's the world. That's the land is beauty. And then people say, but it's such an ugly world. How can you say it's beautiful? Because what we're seeing is the desecration of that beauty. The world itself is beautiful. What we have done to the world is often not.

So, ⁓ you know, that is the domain of the artist, is this beauty making. So we can't lose it, ⁓ this capacity to create beauty. And the domain of the entrepreneur is food and provision and keeping us alive, which is also part of the story and part of the deal. And the marriage of those two is, I think, a good description of what traditional cultures are.

is the unwillingness to separate effectiveness, beauty, and ethics and consider those different domains that there's beauty woven into everything, that you don't do anything unethically and that you bring effectiveness to all you do. If you're going to make an offering to the holy, you make sure it's a good offering and it works and it doesn't crumble on the way there.

So, you know, all of these things, to me, they're very old and we're just trying to find out how to translate that into the times we find ourselves in. Not easy, but important.

Lian (46:36)

Hmm.

Yeah, it's everything. Well, be gone with you before you make me cry anymore times. Tad, where can listeners find out more about you and your work?

Tad (46:48)

Okay.

Well, marketing for hippies.com is the main place. And I think shortly after this interview comes out, Bradley Morris and I are going to be doing some work around this idea of signature workshops, which is the most effective way we found for our kinds of to get clients themselves. So if you go to magicmedia.com, M-A-J-I-K, magicmedia.com slash ⁓ series, there's three webinars we're doing and then.

magicmedia.com slash signature dash workshop. There's ⁓ a, the writeup on that course. So that's me.

Lian (47:27)

wonderful. And I know you've got a bunch of resources on everything we've just been talking about and I'll make sure they're all on the show notes as well. Tad, as ever, this has been a real pleasure. Thank you so much. Just so appreciate you and the work that you do.

Tad (47:44)

Thank Thanks for having me back.

Lian (47:46)

⁓ always. And I believe we're talking again soon. I'm looking forward to it.

Tad (47:51)

Me too. Take care.

Lian (47:54)

What a wonderful show. ⁓ Already, I'd say one of my favourites. I actually recommended it to Sara to add to our hidden gems before it even came out. I already know that this is one of those ones that I'll be referring people back to over and over again. Here are my favourite parts. The trap often reveals itself through posturing and collapsing, and both are driven by the same underlying fear.

The real work isn't about balancing opposites, but about moving beyond the binary into composure, where we no longer need to prove or hide. The artist and entrepreneur are ancient archetypes. And when we bring them into right relationship, we create the conditions for beautiful, ethical, and effective work in the world. If you'd like to hop on over to the show notes for the links, they're at bemythical.com slash podcast slash five one six.

And if you're struggling with the challenges of walking your soul path in this crazy modern world and would benefit from guidance, kinship and support on this most ancient and time-honoured of paths to remember who you are, discover your kin, answer your soul's calling in deep service, creating the life your heart longs for, can discover more and join us by hopping on over to bemythical.com slash unio. Let's walk the path home together.

And if you don't want to miss out on next week's episode, head on over to your podcasting app or platform of choice, including YouTube and hit that subscribe or follow button. That way you'll get each episode delivered straight to your device, auto-magically as soon as it's released. Thank you so much for listening. You've been wonderful. I'm sending you all my love. I'll catch you again next week and until then go be mythical.

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