How to rewild learning: Animism, ancestral wisdom & experiential learning (transcript)

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Episode Transcript:

​​Lian (00:00)

Hello, my beautiful mythical old souls and a huge warm welcome back.

What if there is a way that you are designed to learn, evolve to learn even? Well, the invitation of this show is for you to understand that and even to reclaim it. On the show this week, I'm joined by past guest and in fact, one of my very favourite guests, Aidan Wachter.

Aidan is an animist, author and healer.

And in this episode, we dive deep into the essence of teaching and learning, weaving together themes of projections, archetypes, and the transformative power of experiential education. We explore how modern conditioning distances us from an innate learning process and highlights the profound connection between learning and remembrance. We challenge conventional views of teaching. advocating for an approach that honours individual journeys and the unique keys each of us carries to unlock deeper truths. Ultimately, this episode invites you to remember your inherent knowledge, embrace the beauty of being both teacher and student, and rediscover your rightful place in a conscious living world.

And before we jump into all of that good stuff,

If you're struggling with the challenges of walking your soul path in this crazy modern world and would benefit from guidance, support and kinship, come join our Academy of the Soul, UNIO. You can find out more and join us by hopping on over to bemythical.com slash UNIO or click the link in the description.

And now back to this week's episode. Let's dive in.

Lian (01:46)

Hello Aiden, welcome back to the show.

Aidan (01:50)

Thank you for having me as always, it's always a pleasure.

Lian (01:53)

well, it's already been been fun catching up and sometimes we start to almost accidentally start the conversation that we're meant to be having on the recording before we start recording. But this time we went off on a merry tangent all about grip strength. So we've kept ourselves quite fresh for the topic. So we we last time we were recording.

Aidan (02:10)

Hahaha.

Lian (02:21)

sort of started to go off on a bit of a kind of side route off already the beaten path side route of a side route of a side route probably where we touched on something around being a teacher and how in being a teacher we are being taught. It's almost like I think it was part of our whole conversation was about being a vessel and there was something about that kind of outputting into the world kind of opens the space for more to come in. We're not talking about that and then we, I can't remember if actually on the show or afterwards, we were talking about kind of being of service, that kind of having that role where we recognise we're being of utility. And so it felt like there was lots in that for both of us and would be something to come back and explore. So I feel like let's just start by I guess both sharing what's coming to mind when, and pick one of those words, it might be service or it might be this, this notion of teacher and being taught. Just start with what, what does that elicit for you? What does that evoke for you? What does that mean for you?

Aidan (03:39)

Yeah, For me, I would say I would start with the teacher, which we've discussed is an odd one for me that I kind of resisted for a long time. And what I've come to, and not as much as Healer, but they're both in there. For me, what it is is realising that it's not about me thinking that I am some super genius that has all the answers.

Lian (03:57)

But not as much as Hila!

Aidan (04:12)

just that I'm willing to share kind of my process and my experience. kind of in that effort, much like if you were like a creative writing teacher or something, to try and give folks permission to dive in and actually figure out what that means for themselves, whatever the subject is. It doesn't matter if it's bike repair or magic or something. Or publishing, know, because they're self-published.

It's mostly about that. It's like, can I get Can I separate out the part of that's like my ego resistant thing going, I'm not that special, I'm not any of that to go, no, I know some stuff and it's stuff that people can use. And if I can find the right people rather than, I think what turns me off more than anything is that there's a lot of the kind of modern marketing around teaching is I have the thing that will fix everybody or that you need. And I'm always like, I don't know, but I'll be.

Lian (05:07)

you

Aidan (05:24)

be as open as I can so you can figure that out. And then when that happens, it's very clear that that's an appropriate process. go, yeah, this is stuff that is helping people.

Lian (05:27)

Mmm.

Yeah.

What was coming to mind listening to you was that I think with, with, guess, most things, if not anything in life, we can tend to have wounding that can show, have a show up in either a kind of inflated or deflated state around something, which is kind of our work to alchemize and move beyond in whatever way is right for us. And I was considering listening to you talk how I think you and I are quite similar in that our tendency is probably more the deflated end where we'll kind of rather step back more rather than kind of impose ourselves and kind of be this all-knowing, all-seeing teacher will tend to be rather kind of hold back and be more

responsive to whatever is being asked for and be more of a kind of vessel for something rather than this kind of like I know it and then I'm going to preach it. I think we spoke about this last time, think again both of us have a more sort of Socratic way of being where we're more sort midwifing out that wisdom, that knowing from someone else.

And I think, you know, there is absolutely a beauty and a place for that. And certainly, again, I'm going to speak personally rather than projecting my stuff on you. That definitely has been, again, real work to recognise the ways that there's, again, a need for that. And there's a perfect place for that style of teaching. But there's also for me this journey of recognising what I'm holding back when actually I'm being called forward.

And then again, I think for other people, it can be the opposite where it's like, actually, there is bit of stepping back, a bit of humbling, a bit of opening to do. But I'd love to hear first before we dive deeper, what your senses of what I've just shared and whether that does apply to you.

Aidan (07:40)

Yeah, I think that definitely applies to me. Somebody actually really helped me. I was asking in my Patreon about what people would be interested in me teaching on. somebody who I really enjoy their commentary in there kind of threw out, this is the kind of thing that works for me. And I just started laughing because I'm like, I'm not that guy at all.

Lian (08:06)

hahahahah

Aidan (08:07)

Like that's hilarious. And they kind of noted there's like, know this may not be your thing, but this is how I kind of like stuff structured. It's like, I'm not that I'm like, you know, I'm a little bit like the squirrels. We were talking about earlier. It's like, not like check out the nut. You want the nut. That's as far as I go. It's like, I'm not a particularly organized thinker. I don't write from outlines. I don't outline classes. don't.

Lian (08:25)

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Aidan (08:36)

do any of that.

And so it's very interesting on that front because it's like the idea of let's create a syllabus for like a six month course is just what are you even talking about? How would you know what needs to happen in the moment? And with those people, right? Cause that's what I'm interested in. And so it becomes a kind of an interesting process is how do you get it to where you can at least have a subject.

Lian (08:50)

Mm.

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Aidan (09:06)

because I don't really need the subject. It's like I'm fine walking in on the things that I know and going, what's up? And if I can get people to start talking, then I can go, okay, how about this? So I think that's very much the case. And it's also that thing too, is it's like I'm not interested in prescriptive teaching. It's like I don't.

Lian (09:07)

Mmm.

Aidan (09:32)

do things in a rote manner. I don't want to teach that. I don't want to learn that way for sure. Which has a ton of limitations. But for me it's just the only, it's the way that I kind of am organically.

Lian (09:46)

Yeah, well, I was pondering as I was hearing you share on that, and I think this goes some way in the direction of this idea of as we're teaching, we are learning, we're being taught. And certainly personally, it's been very interesting getting to know myself through the work I do. And again, I think in particular, the teaching I do is it's, doesn't just teach me about the thing, whatever the thing is, it also teaches me about myself. And I guess linked to that, and this is, I guess, a challenging part of being in that role of teacher, particularly for those of us that have come about it quite with resistance and hesitancy is, and I've had some really clear illuminations of this personally recently is the fact that as much as we are kind of not necessarily wanting to position ourselves as this teacher, it will we will actually absolutely be projected on as that. And also all of the different energies and archetypes that people associate with that, for example, a role model is a big part of that often. A guide and how that kind of, we can either pretend that's not happening or we can kind of recognise it is happening and in some way or other open to that and be responsible for that. Which again, I think it creates this feedback loop where we learn about ourselves through that and learn what we're actually here for, being called to. But I'd love to hear your experience of that, how the more you've been in that role, like...

what you're being shown in terms of projections from others and these other archetypes that kind of sit alongside it.

Aidan (11:44)

You know, primary thing that comes up is that, and this is, you've read my stuff, so you know what's in there overall, is I really, and so it's rooted in something that's very much there, which is I am not a believer, and we've talked about this in many different ways, in the way that things currently work. And so, It's very difficult for me to want to, to want to, know how to even address that desire in people that come to me. Cause part of it for me is like, don't you just want to out? Like, why do you want it to fit in that box? Whatever the box is, you know, I don't really care. A part of my thing is like, let's try and figure out how not to box anything, you know?

Lian (12:36)

Mm.

Aidan (12:45)

And so some of it has been a really interesting process of going, okay.

Folks that are drawn to what I do, that's part of what they're drawn to, but they're often not aware of it or they don't have a context other than the ones that they've been exposed to. And so can I kind of create bridges? And I think if that's one of my skills is to go, okay, I can see where you're at and I can see where your thinking is maybe getting in the way of your experiential.

Lian (13:11)

Mmm.

Aidan (13:22)

knowing of these things because I think that all of the stuff that you and I are doing is really related to this kind of direct experiential knowledge and create those bridges. And so that was, think, one of the things that really kicked up in the last year or so, is realising like, that's kind of the skill that I have. And it's often, like there's been comments on some of my books that like, you know, when I've seen people who have sent me kind of positive reviews that they've written or whatever.

Lian (13:46)

Mmm.

Aidan (13:59)

where people will go like, you he's really good at synthesizing all of these different things. And to me, that's not really what it is. It's like, can I bridge it down to how do you get experiential with it? It's not really a synthesis of lots of different stuff. It's just like, what's the, I guess it is in the sense of what's the core of like an energy work practice, but it's more how fast can I get you to feel it?

Lian (14:09)

Mmm.

Yeah.

Aidan (14:24)

Can we skip all the theory? Can I kind of go at the heart of you and the heart of it and kind of link those things together and build that bridge? I don't know if that answers your question, but that's the biggest thing that I think I see that I didn't used to see. Like I didn't kind of get really what people were reacting to, and now I can kind of go, okay. I think that that's what it is.

Lian (14:34)

Mmm.

You kind of have sidestepped my question, I think, but I think in some ways it's kind of answering it indirectly in that my take on what you've just shared is that recognition that people are going to be looking for all kinds of things from you and projecting all kinds of things on you. And you're kind of like,

Aidan (14:51)

at least frequently.

Probably.

Lian (15:17)

all the time, sort of slightly sidestepping and going like, and how can you experience this thing? What does this look like to you? And what does that evoke for you? And so there's almost like a kind of quite trickstery aspects of it, where it's like, every time they think they're seeing you, you're over here, and they're looking in another mirror. That's what came to mind as you were talking. It was almost that you did the very thing into my question that I can kind of see.

Aidan (15:43)

And

Lian (15:45)

I like your style.

Aidan (15:45)

I totally see that and it totally makes sense to me.

And part of it is because I think that this was what was so confusing for me.

particularly in school, I didn't stay in for very long, but as I kind of moved out of kind of the elementary school grades, you know, after moving, I guess when you hit like 14 or whatever, at least where I was at that time, a vast amount of what I had trouble learning was stuff that was purely theoretical. It's like, no, you like have to show me application, you know?

Lian (16:19)

Mmm.

Aidan (16:25)

And it's also realising that I am personally very much a visual and kinesthetic learner, which I think we might have talked about last time.

Lian (16:33)

Mmm.

Aidan (16:37)

And so I kind of don't know how you talk somebody to an understanding, which is kind of weird when you write books, because that's kind of the goal. And so even in that, it's like I feel more like that's a process of… Looking at the narrative and seeing is this having the internal effect I want rather than it being logical arguments that lead to here Like am I pointed kind of at the heart again because that's all that I kind of got

Lian (17:07)

Mmm.

Yes, yeah, it's synchronistic actually. My lovely neighbour gave me, as you know, I went to the hospital earlier and my lovely neighbour gave me a lift there and back so we had time to have conversations about all kinds of things and we were talking about school and the school system and the way that children are taught and all these kind of things and talking about very similar things the way that often things are taught in a way that's not contextual, it isn't useful, it makes it very difficult to learn it, let alone remember it, to an extent can be one of the same thing. and um, it's, I think that in itself is fascinating to me in a culture where we have been, ironically I was about to use the word taught, but like taught, how to teach and how to learn in a way that's completely the opposite to how humans actually learn. It's actually, I mean, it's sad and it has real consequences, but there's also something quite almost like just strangely amusing of like how we've taught something so about face to the point where we think that's the correct way.

And having our own experience of something is not, it doesn't count. That isn't the thing. There is just something so bizarrely upside down about that.

Aidan (18:56)

Well, you know, and it goes back to one of our, I don't know if it's the first, but one of our very early talks about kind of rewilding is, yeah, that if we look at the human animal for the last, you know, however many hundred thousands of years you want to accept that what we were at that time was human, I go back quite a long ways. Everything was experiential. Everything was witnessed. It's like, you know, you're being carried around because they can't leave you anywhere.

Lian (19:21)

Mmm.

Aidan (19:26)

So you get to see what the adults are doing from day one, you know. And it's all practical. It's all hands on because there's no going to the store. You know, there's no look it up in the book. And so you're, I think we're, at least the vast majority of us, I think have to be structurally wired to learn by witnessing and then doing.

Lian (19:29)

Yeah.

Mmm.

Mmm.

Aidan (19:53)

and this whole idea that we're going to talk information into you and get you to memorise it is extremely bizarre and I would say probably pathological to the animal.

Lian (20:04)

Yeah. It feels to me this is, it's not, it's not an unknown part of rewilding. Cause I think, you know, absolutely those of us that are interested in rewilding have absolutely seen this around learning, but it's occurring to me as we're talking, how deep this goes, how deep the conditioning of a certain kind of learning quotes marks, which is like, is it even learning? How deep that conditioning goes.

I was also thinking when you were saying about hands on, was like, perhaps we will talk about grip strength. Actually, I suddenly thought that this actually connects directly potentially. I'll just quickly talk directly to listeners to catch them up with our conversation. So I just went for hand therapy on a finger injury that I've been journeying with over the last few months.

Aidan (20:41)

Hahaha!

Lian (21:03)

As part of the different checks and measurements, I had to do a grip test and it turned out that I've got an exceptionally strong grip. It's on par with the average man's. And then Aidan said, apparently it's one of the top indicators of longevity. And then we started talking about like, why might that be? And so it feels like this interestingly and synchronistically is potentially directly related to some interesting things around learning.

Aidan (21:26)

Ha ha ha ha.

Lian (21:33)

And so what do you, what do you feel is going on there in relationship to what we're talking about? Cause this feels directly related.

Aidan (21:41)

Well, I think it's really interesting because we talk about.

Lian (21:49)

Hahaha

Aidan (21:49)

It's someone who is a natural at something picks it up easily. Right? Ooh, and I've got interesting iPhone stuff happening. We get bubbles. Interesting. I need to shut that off since the last update. I forgot that you had to do that each time. But...

Lian (21:54)

Ooh!

Aidan (22:08)

It's like, you pick it up, right? Somebody who's a natural picks things up easily. And so there's a logical connection there.

Lian (22:18)

we were talking about the neurological aspects weren't we? We're like it's easy to think this is all just physical but is anything actually?

Aidan (22:21)

And there's a neural...

Right, because that's where we were talking about I guess on that is realising that our strength physically is actually not initially, like if you start strength training, you're not initially, and I'm specifically talking strength, not training for muscle mass. Your initial strength gains don't come from an increase in cross-sectional structures in the muscle. They come from neurology that you become able to more, to activate more of the available, like already available muscle units, motor units. And so if you look at how like professional power lifters and how professional Olympic weight lifters train, they train with this. They're doing very low reps of quite heavy weights with very long

Lian (23:01)

Mmm.

Aidan (23:23)

rest periods because they don't want the central nervous system to get tired at all. So in a sense, it's really, there's a big chunk of that training that is really just learning how to actually use what you already got way more effectively.

Lian (23:28)

Mmm.

Yeah, so here we go back to learning. Isn't that interesting?

Aidan (23:43)

Mm-hmm. Well, and it is interesting. And I think it's also, you know, I'm working on a book that has a lot to do with ancestral currents in a few different ways. And one of the things that's kind of kicked up with that is realising that most of what I think is kind of weird about the modern world was My current take is that it was intentionally trained in. Like that conditioning that we know. Like we know that the modern school system was really developed alongside the Industrial Revolution. go, okay, if we're going to stick people in factories, they have to be able to do that. So we need to stick them in classrooms that are like factories and give them repetitive, boring work so that they'll be willing to go into another building like that. as adults and do that work for us. And I think this happened, I think this very clearly happened around kind of spiritual connections to the natural world. And as an animist, know, that's a much wider thing than just the material aspects of it. There's a huge spiritual component and spirit component to it.

Lian (24:42)

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Aidan (25:08)

And the thing that's interesting about that or why I think it kicks in right here is that if you have that kind of connection to the real world, you're completely ungovernable because you don't care what somebody else has to say. It's not like you don't listen to people, but there's a certain point that somebody tries to feed you a line of shit and you're just like, that's a line of shit. You want something that you don't want to work for.

Lian (25:21)

Yeah.

Mmm.

Aidan (25:36)

or you want something of mine and you would like me to give it to you without there being any kind of fair operation here. And this is the entirety of our civilization now is based on these ideas. And so you had to train people to not trust their experience.

Lian (25:46)

Mm.

Mmm.

Aidan (25:57)

And so when we're looking at things like how we teach now in schools, unless you get into really cool schools that know these things, they're all kind of designed this. We're going to tell you shit that really doesn't matter, but we're going to tell you that it does and you need to listen to it. And we're going to studiously avoid all sorts of things that would change your perspective because we want you to have a unified perspective overall. So we know what kind of, where your buttons are and where your triggers are.

Lian (26:19)

Mmm.

Aidan (26:26)

Which is an interesting thing and I think that's why I had so much resistance to this whole idea of teaching initially Was because of that like I don't want to do that to anybody and so it was really realising that's not what I have to offer And so instead let's focus on what I do have to offer and realise that though the word is the same teacher The intention may be very different than

Lian (26:39)

Yeah.

Aidan (26:57)

the ones that I grew up with.

Lian (26:59)

Gosh, there's so much here. It's no surprise that we're kind of now going several layers deeper than I was initially thinking we would. Something I just realised, what I'm about to say is really obvious, but I've never seen it quite like this before. So as you might recall from our previous conversations, I had, well,

Aidan (27:08)

Ha

Lian (27:28)

In general, I had an upbringing that wasn't kind of normal. But there were particular times during my childhood where we were kind of like almost completely out of society. And so I didn't go to school, we were literally living on the land. And it was, you know, as wild as pretty much as possible to get in, you know, this day and age. And I then went back into the schooling system and couldn't, you know, I kind of tried and then really just couldn't and seemingly failed at school. And I've often thought, that was just, that's just my nature that, you know, I don't do well, you know, it's a combination of neurodivergence and just my nature not to kind of fit in systems.

And it's just dawned on me listening to you that I had enough of a taste of the wild that I wasn't able to be trained and tamed into that system in the way that most children sadly are. And it's just dawned on me, like, I think that actually was the primary reason I couldn't do that. It's only just occurred to me.

Aidan (28:46)

That makes total sense to me. Yeah, that makes total sense, because I think I had the reverse, that I was so much in that thing, And it just was so wrong for me, but I didn't know why. You know, and it's again, it's...

Lian (29:02)

Hmm

Aidan (29:07)

To take that a little bit further for folks listening, if you think about all the stuff in the West that leads to layers of self-doubt and self-loathing, and I talk about this in the book.

It's worth considering that that was intentionally put on you because it's a great control mechanism. Because if you know what you're capable of, you're really, really dangerous to control structures, meaning that you won't play well. And so in a sense, that's a great example of it in your story, that you came in with that enough natural

Lian (29:31)

Mm.

Mm.

Aidan (29:52)

sense of yourself that when you got put into that box you were like this box sucks. You know I'm not gonna go in there. Whereas I had kind of the reverse I was kind of in it and it eventually got so bad I was like I'm out get me out of here.

Lian (29:59)

Mmm.

Hmm, it suggests that it doesn't take much to connect us back to how we've actually spent most of our time on this planet. There's something really beautiful about that that, you know, it doesn't take much for, in fact, this links to something that was in my awareness earlier in the conversation. I don't necessarily know this is wholly the case, but...

Aidan (30:19)

No.

Lian (30:40)

what it occurs to me that much of what we call learning is actually remembering. And I don't necessarily mean remembering things we knew in this lifetime, it could be remembering ancestral knowledge, it can be remembering potentially from past lives. I've had a couple of times recently where I've been in conversation. So in our, in our academy, UNIO, I often

we have a mythical quest and then I sometimes do like a kind of side quest where I'll kind of like it's an optional kind of quest where we go deeper into something like this month we're kind of weaving astrology and Kabbalah together. And a new member is really deep in Kabbalah and Tarot, but not so much astrology. But he said something and I'm like, yes, I've had that experience so often. He said it's like, it's even though I haven't really gone deep with it in this lifetime, it's like this immediate recognition where I'm remembering it from another lifetime. And you can see that even the way he's talking about it, it's like, it's just there, he's got this like resonance with it that's remembered from somewhere. And I, again, I think because so much of what I'm talking about here, it just isn't part of our culture, you know, the notion of ancestral wisdom is just dismissed, the notion of past lives is. the notion of our body holding memories that we can access. None of this is really something, in fact, again, going to your point earlier, it's not just that we don't know it, it's potentially purposely removed from our knowing. But I'd love to hear your thoughts on this idea of learning as remembrance.

Aidan (32:25)

This is something, and I know it's in at least one of my books that are in print and it's heavily in the one that I'm working on now because this is very much my take the further that I go in and it kind of directly goes into our thing about teaching as well.

I think all of this stuff for at least a lot of us and the book kind of goes into a possible mechanism when it comes to kind of spiritual stuff but is remembering. I don't – there's no reason why I'm able to do what I do and I don't think it really came from my studying when it comes to kind of magical and spiritual stuff. It was like I knew it was possible and I knew that I had to figure out.

Lian (33:08)

Mmm.

Aidan (33:15)

Mindsets the wrong way, but almost like how do I place myself in relationship to the world? So that these things that I know somehow can actually manifest and come through. And I do think it's a combo up, you know, if three weeks ago I would have said I had questions about what I thought about the past life thing. But because of what I'm working on the book, I had this transmission that was like,

Lian (33:28)

Mmm.

Aidan (33:45)

Fuck. Okay. So I don't have clear memories, but now I know like 30 times that I was here before. It's clear knowledge. It's like, no, I don't remember the specifics, but I know kind of those placeholder descriptions of things that I have been. And...

Lian (34:06)

Just say that honestly it's so much synchronicity weaving through this conversation it's it's hilarious because I guess through a different podcast a couple of months ago and it got released I think yesterday or sometime this week and I was listening back to it and I'd actually forgotten I'd said this but at some point I was giving an example of something and I said I said

you know, where possible, I like to answer from kind of where I am now, like what's emergent and present now, rather than kind of have these sort of like ideas about things that stay fixed. And I gave the example where I was recording a conversation I had with my daughter who asked the most just fabulously weird, wonderful questions. And she said something like, is reincarnation real? And do you think reincarnation is real? and I sort of like had that moment of like checking in like in this moment do I think it's real and it was it was so interesting because I surprised myself answering her and I said I know it is and that was the first time I had that realization of like in this moment I know it is And it was so funny because I only heard myself say that yesterday when I listened back to that episode. So it's so strange that you should be saying this now.

Aidan (35:38)

Yeah,

no, it makes sense. know, and so, but yeah, I mean, and I think that's a big thing that probably why you and I get on so well is we're both in that continuous process. It's like, I don't anchor to anything anymore. It's like, my perspectives change all the time. But in general, there's a consistency and it's more like more is layered on.

Lian (35:56)

Mmm.

Aidan (36:07)

And it's like I get to see a bigger and bigger picture in some way. But so yeah, so I do believe that we have memory from past lives, however you want to view that as happening. I know that I have very deep connections to two different lines that I would say of really archaic ancestors.

And one of those is kind of DNA related and one of those is spiritually related and they're not the same. And so some of the beings that I call allies I know are connected to that spirit layer. They're not necessarily connected to that bloodline and others are definitely connected to that bloodline. And I'm a very big believer now and I have been but it gets more more solid that most of this stuff is about remembering.

Lian (36:52)

Mmm.

Aidan (37:04)

and realising like, look, there's all these layers of things that we've been told are very important that are not necessarily all, it's not like it was a top down all at once, this is how you condition people out of these things. I think it's just been a process over the last 10,000 years of separating us from what we can know. Which in the West is separating from ancestral currents, say.

Lian (37:28)

Mmm.

Aidan (37:33)

separate you from spiritual currents, separate you from actually being in the dirt, you know.

And so that's again, think that's that teaching thing for me is is trying to figure out how can I help other people remember.

Lian (37:56)

Mmm.

Aidan (37:57)

more than I have this specific thing that's super important for me to share with you. It's like, can I make keys that will open those locks? Because I think everybody's got it. And my interest is in helping people access those.

Lian (38:15)

What was occurring to me hearing you say that was, as you said, you and I, think part of why we get on is that we have this similar kind of like not knowing, not knowing, in this moment, I know something and then that's gone and then not knowing, not knowing. And linking into this idea of learning is remembering.

It's a funny thing because I think we can sometimes see remembering as kind of like, in my mind, I've got this, you might use a computer analogy or a filing cabinet analogy, but like, I've got these things stored, but that's my memory. I've got these things stored. But from the lens of what we're talking about, it could be that very notion of got these things stored that closes us to this like potentially infinite, infinite. well of things we can remember. And I think that's interesting because again it goes, you know, very counter to how culturally we think of memory that we are thinking is about this kind of gripping mentally onto ideas, not the opening to allow more remembering to come back in.

Aidan (39:37)

I think that's very true and it's a good way to put it. Because If we think about How would I put this?

It's like we don't, it's like we accept in animals that they have this kind of experience of the world. But that kind of attempt to move humans outside of the animal camp, which is kind of the first error in my mind.

Lian (40:15)

Mmm.

Aidan (40:18)

We take it away. It's not weird to us that horses know how to do horse things from the jump. Your horse is not... I mean, yeah, if there's predators around, whatever, it's not gonna die if it's shown how to be a horse by other people. But humans, because we're so weak and so incapable as babies, we don't have that.

Lian (40:25)

Mm-hmm.

Aidan (40:47)

sense of ourselves, but we're also not, I mean we're communal animals which is part of what that whole training that gets put on us, the conditioning is to kind of like, don't realise that. So that's another bad thing. don't want to y'all, y'all shouldn't remember that you're that you're that you're communal because that's a lot of power.

Lian (40:58)

Hmm.

Yeah!

Aidan (41:13)

And so it's very interesting because I do think that that idea of Like as soon as we move into kind of institutional religious knowledge and institutionalized spiritual positions where somebody talks to God and tells you what that means for you. We're in just deep shit. Because you go, why would that be that way? Like, what makes that person special? And why is it always in favor of the people that

Lian (41:45)

Mmm.

Aidan (41:57)

have that position. Why does this never not work the other way? Because it's a control mechanism. It's a civilization tool. That's an empire tool.

Lian (42:00)

Hmm.

Aidan (42:11)

I actually think and it's kind of a big thing within what this book is trying to do again, trying to be a key not trying to be a lecture is how do we tap into those lines of information that are available to us and go, okay, this is all right there. It's not going to come through like the encyclopedia. It's not going to come through like Wikipedia. It's not going to come through like a two hour. video where somebody tells you what to think. It's this process of how do I tap into whatever it is that I'm connected to and however you view that. My background's magic and so that's the language that I use but I don't think that that's the relevant piece.

Lian (42:49)

you

Aidan (43:00)

because it's all right there, it's all available.

Lian (43:04)

It's kind of paradoxical, isn't it? way of seeing it in that... I'm going to attempt to put words to this paradox. We shall see if I can manage it. It's kind of like...

We need to learn how to remember. And then when we remember, we don't need to learn because it's all right there. But there's a kind of like sort of delicate, light handed, that part of the learning to remember that is kind of once that's out of the way, like just chuck that notion of the bit that we were taught away so that we can be in the stream of the remembering.

and then that will teach us. But there is definitely something paradoxical about it because there sometimes is something needed to get us back into that stream of remembering, but it can so easily become heavy-handed and actually get in the way. And again, culturally, that's what's happening all the time. But I think even those of us that have a sense of the things we're talking about, have a sense of what true learning and true teaching is,

Aidan (43:58)

Absolutely.

Lian (44:18)

Again, it is a very delicate balance. It's like, when is there, when are we being called to give more, give less? Also recognising that even if we are recognising that the role isn't to directly teach, it's to create what we're talking about, because so many of us culturally have been trained to learn in a more kind of rote way, that will be looked for.

And so there's a lot here that kind of like can get in the way of that happening, even though it's possibly the most natural thing for us. What's your, what's your sense of that?

Aidan (44:59)

Yeah, I think about that a lot. One of the things that I've been talking about lately is like, is like really softening about all this stuff is the language that I used to describe it.

And right now the kind of constant data stream from the modern world is so insane that it makes it really, really difficult to go like, you don't get to know what your experience of spiritual things are going to be. And so if that's what you're trying to find before you dive in, you will not find it. But this isn't to say not look at the material because you don't know what your key is. Like the keys that worked for me.

Lian (45:24)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Aidan (45:46)

are going to be very different than some that work for others.

Lian (45:47)

Mmm.

Aidan (45:50)

And so that softening is also, you know, a good example of that. So I had a really interesting.

session that my allies instituted a few weeks ago, rapidly following on the heels of them showing me some of the reincarnation stuff.

And they basically gave me a new way to talk to them or to hear them better that works very well. And so we did that and now it's gone. And in the past, I would have been so frustrated. But now I kind of know, like, okay, that did something. They got some information through that way. And maybe that's the only time that's gonna happen that way.

Lian (46:43)

Hmm.

Aidan (46:43)

But it's also entirely possible that if we're going back to like our neurological stuff, now I'm having to rewire in some way. Like there's new synapses and shit going on physically as well as whatever is going on kind of metaphysically that need to be in place for that to be a consistent thing. And practically it makes sense because it's like two nights of that, I was pretty blown up. And so I think it's also.

Lian (46:51)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Aidan (47:10)

Accepting the kind of wisdom of that of going like no you probably can't do this for the next month trying to get as much out of us So why don't we just turn off the faucet for a while which is a blessing, know, it's uncomfortable because that was really cool But I also have so much more experience just from time in going. Okay, that'll be back in some form or a new form It doesn't matter, but I got some things that I really needed

Lian (47:34)

Hmm.

Aidan (47:38)

To do the work that I'm doing which brings us kind of around to that whole thing if I wouldn't have had that experience I don't think if I wasn't teaching In my patreon and if I wasn't working on the book that I'm working on that they were like, okay You you need some shit you don't have and we'll hook you up And now I have to figure out kind of how to integrate all that

Lian (47:43)

Mmm.

Yeah.

Mmm.

Yes, thank you for bringing it back there. Gosh, there's two different things, two different strands I want to pull out. So I'll quickly name one and then see where the other one takes us. There is almost like a...

It's like I just in order to do the thing we are being asked to do, there is almost a slight, OK, we're to need to kind of like do a bit of an upgrade here. And it's really easy to kind of get a bit high on your own supply, you know, like, my goodness, I've now got this new power or knowing. But it's like it's literally we're going to give it to you because you need it for this thing. Like, don't get too excited about it. You just literally need it. In order to do this thing that we need you to do. And I just could so feel like just there's something so basic about that. It's like wonderful, magical, but it's also quite basic, isn't it? It's like, you need this fork. Okay, have this fork, go do the work with this fork.

Aidan (49:10)

Absolutely. No, it's very much like that.

It is it's funny too because it's also really interesting when kind of your work is to transmit this stuff because I have this desire that I want to have the most formed version of it to share. And pragmatically, like with the book, they were like, nope, turning it off. It's like, okay, this is, guess, what I need for this book. And now I need to make it make some sense and get it into a semi-coherent format for other people to be in.

Lian (49:27)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Yeah.

Mmm.

Aidan (49:46)

and then we'll see what happens next. But I did need to know stuff that I didn't know. I needed to have some experiences that I didn't have. And it did reframe the entire book and it's reframed what I'm teaching. And it is really, you can kind of see why people get, it's probably the risk within kind of spiritual practices is the high on your own supply thing.

Lian (49:51)

Yeah.

Mmm.

Aidan (50:15)

I'm also like really happy. Like it's like there's the part of me that is like, they turned off the tap and I'm like, thank God. Cause it's like, that could get really fucking messy. I know you see, you see it. It's like, okay. I would much rather be the guy that has a little bit. and no, he has a little bit than the guy that has a little bit in the things he has all of it.

Lian (50:22)

Yeah.

Mmm.

Yes, words, wise words.

So the other thing that I would love to explore before we close and as ever, this is just flown by and I'm really aware that this question potentially could end up being a whole question and even maybe a book on its own. Maybe not, we'll see.

I have a habit I think of doing this kind of like opening up another vortex so just as women to be closing one. So a number of times you've used the metaphor although I kind of have this sense it's not exactly a metaphor it's also literal. Use the metaphor of keys this kind of like you know if I have the keys and like you've talked about people you know being given the keys you having the keys and I was considering, and again, I may not know what you mean by that, but I was recognizing what that elicited in me. And I'll share that actually, because it may be completely different, but it has still been my own key. And I would then love to hear what did you mean by that? And perhaps even some examples of how you've seen that can show up, either for yourself or for others, because it feels as though this is and actually quite a meta way, bit like the key over like understanding this that we're talking about that keys potentially is the key to learning stroke remembering. So I was when when you were saying that what came to mind for me was the way that there's been certain what you might call symbols that have had this kind of like echo returning effect for me over the years where they first popped up many, many years ago. I probably can't remember. There's one in particular I'm going to share in a moment, I'll talk around it first. So I don't remember when it first became this symbol that I was like, there's something here for me. And then it's up over and over again in all different ways.

to the point where I've realised, and again, it came to mind as a, like, this is one of my keys. And it constantly opens me to understand more, see more, remember more. And every time I'm thinking, like, there can't be anything more, it's like, whoa, here we go again. And for me, that key is this notion of union. And so union between two things. And I'd say kind of most...

potently of all for me it's been the union of masculine and feminine but it's very much been you know it doesn't just doesn't have to be just that it's just a union of two things there's been this like repeated symbol that just comes up over and over again it's it's all over my astrology for example but it wasn't that that I first saw it in it was something completely different and it just again echoed down the years is this this key that if I am willing to wield this key It opens door after door after door. And so I would love to know what do you mean by key and what has that been for you?

Aidan (54:05)

So for me, I initially use it in a kind of general way.

How do I, how would I put it?

Lian (54:15)

So I haven't opened up a vortex. No. We'll see.

Aidan (54:17)

No, maybe. We'll see. We'll see. But, I think for all of the things that any of us are trying for or aspiring for or called to, that there is a key. But that key is not anything standardized, which is where I think a lot of really systematic things are great for learning systems, but they're not necessarily great for tapping into this particular kind of thing I'm speaking of, I guess.

And so for me, A good example is like I've been teaching in my Patreon some energy work and I've written about energy work and these specific forms of energy and I've talked about them. But until I started actually running people through them in live Zooms, almost everybody that's been in those is like, well, this is different than I thought it was. Right? Like different, good, but like, it's like, okay, so that in that sense is a key, right? It's like, if I can run people through, there's something about doing it in group, doing it with my voice, doing it live.

Lian (55:26)

Different good?

Mmm.

Mm.

Aidan (55:46)

Because I can tell, which I didn't know what happened on. didn't know. I'm always iffy about the technology, but I can feel it. It's like, OK, I can tell where to take this because of who's in the room, which is very interesting. So like that is a key.

Lian (55:57)

Mmm.

Aidan (56:06)

humorously kind of that softening of what's comfortable and just watching like your loveliness that you did for me of calling me a healer was a huge key to me opening to teaching. And to also realise like, yeah, what I'm talking about is kind of a very deep cultural healing. If I had my druthers about what the results would be.

Lian (56:20)

Hmm.

Aidan (56:34)

Which I don't think they will be, but if I had my... That's the drive for me and the peeps, you

Lian (56:34)

Mmm.

Aidan (56:44)

So for me, like if I have like a personal conceptual key, it's animism. And that's been an evolving thing for me for a very long time since before I was aware of it really consciously as like, this explains something about how I perceive the world. It keeps cracking everything open. And so I would say that everything that we've talked about

Lian (56:52)

Mm-hmm.

Aidan (57:12)

For me is rooted in that idea and my thoughts about it and my experiences of it are rooted in that idea That if I'm living in this fully animate universe That is conscious and agentic in of itself and in all of its parts then of course There's all this stuff available to me all the time that I may not recognise is available to me which led me to the idea of like ooh

Lian (57:14)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Aidan (57:43)

This is what every empire doesn't want you to know because you have no use for them. And so you become useful, useless to them and you become actually difficult. which is a lot of what the current book is about, but that idea of like, okay, if I know and I know that I have allies,

Lian (57:47)

Mmm.

Yes.

Aidan (58:08)

I can do what I need to do here. I'm not alone. Alone is not a possibility. And then from that I can look at it and go, so wait a second, we have this like weird Western sense of being alone. Was that intentional? Sure, it makes sense. Disconnect them from their ancestors. Disconnect them from their memories of being here before. Disconnect them.

Lian (58:12)

Yeah.

Aidan (58:36)

from the fact that you cannot be alone if you're alive here. And then you can tell them what matters.

Lian (58:44)

mmm yes oof

Aidan (58:46)

it also explains to me essentially all religious practices, because it's like, okay, is this counter to this? Which in a lot of cases it is. is this a denial of this? and I can look at a lot of different religious practices and go,

Lian (59:00)

Yeah.

Aidan (59:11)

You know, it's interesting and this is, you know, it would, is theoretically one of those things that will piss people off. But there's a lot of statement that says like kind of the big religions all have one thing in common or are all seeking the same thing. And I actually believe that's true in their most institutionalized form. And I believe it is a disconnection from reality. Because reality is very different from those stories.

in the way that they're handed down. doesn't mean there's not truth within them somewhere. Like the root myths are often very powerful, but the institutionalized forms of them are not keys to get you to that place. They're not keys to get you into that reality. They're keys to keep you outside.

Lian (59:53)

Mmm.

Sometimes they can even be, yeah, sometimes the interpretation or the telling of those myths can actually have an opposite, like a completely opposite effect of what it seems to me when you go back and look at the myth with fresh eyes is actually saying.

Aidan (1:00:18)

Yeah, it's interesting, you know, we may have talked about this before, but one of the things that I have a lot of friends who are heavily into folklore and folktales and all that stuff, which is not my main thing. But one of the things that I found really interesting is that if we look at the most popular form of a lot of, just say, Western European folklore, a lot of it is explicitly anti-magic.

It is telling you like, don't go there. Like, don't go there. Because bad things will happen to you. you go, well, yeah, but bad things for who? You know, and that's my, you know, that's where I kind of probably started thinking more this way of going, okay, these are like actually suggesting the reverse of what I suggest. In the reverse of what has worked for me. I do want to go leave the trail.

Lian (1:00:49)

Mmm.

Hmm.

Mmm.

Aidan (1:01:17)

I do want to go get lost in the woods. Because there's things that happen when you do that that you don't get the other way. And those things are very powerful. They are dangerous. But I think that they're more dangerous to the system than they are to the individual.

Lian (1:01:20)

Yeah.

Yes, I just recalled a paraphrase to quote from Clarissa Pincola-Restes, something like, go out, go into the woods, because if you don't go into the woods, nothing will ever happen to you and your life will never begin.

Aidan (1:01:50)

No, and I think that that's very true. And I think that that's almost, it's again, it's such an interesting thing because we have this wonderful, there's like these wonderful substructures of modern technology. Like you and I can have this conversation and people that, you know, you and I would likely have never met.

And yet beyond just like the nonsense, which I'm a fan of some of the nonsense, so I'm not dissing it all the way.

The thing that if I, if there's a thing that I find that I have to kind of like fight against in people that kind of come to me for something I can do teaching is like, you don't get to know. That's the entire game here. Like you're reading and reading and reading until you know. And that is not what's going to get you to knowing. And that knowing is probably going to be transient. You're going to know what's true right now, today.

Lian (1:02:42)

Mmm.

Yes!

Aidan (1:02:56)

And then you're going to wake up and go, well, fuck, that's gone. And you have to have that faith and that softening. And that's the faith part of it. It's not faith in some external superpower that's going to save your ass. It's like, no, it's going to keep changing. But if you stay, and my term is soft or open, the next thing will come. And the next thing will come. And they'll come when you need them.

Lian (1:03:20)

Mm-mm.

I was just, I don't normally do this, but I was kind of just thinking, I wonder what on earth we're going to call this episode. Because it feels like it's really like morphed and shifted as the conversation has gone on. yeah, I have no idea, but I feel like we've talked about the things we needed to talk about.

Aidan (1:03:51)

Always. I think we always have this end. I think this is how they all end.

Lian (1:03:59)

Well, it's been an absolute joy. Where can listeners find out about you and dare I say it, your teachings?

Aidan (1:04:08)

AidenWachter.com is my website. I'm on threads, bluesky, Instagram, some, and mainly on Patreon.

Lian (1:04:21)

I haven't even made it over to threads and blue sky. I'm actually kind of in the point where I'm and renegotiating my relationship to like any social media. So you're I don't know if you're ahead of me or not on that. But yeah, you did. Yes.

Aidan (1:04:36)

Well, I left it all for several years, so I kind of came back and really picked it according to vibe. I'm quite fond of blue sky so far, so far that's... But I take lots of pictures out in the forest, so I use Instagram for that.

Lian (1:04:49)

Well it has been again a real pleasure. Thank you so much Aidan.

Aidan (1:04:56)

It's always a pleasure. Thank you, Lian.

Lian (1:04:58)

Thank you.

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