How to grow from the #innerchild to the #sovereign (transcript)

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Episode Transcript:

Lian (00:00)

Why is sovereignty so often the missing link when it comes to walking the path of the soul? Well, in this week's episode, I'm joined by past guest, the wonderful Rod Boothroyd.

Rod brings more than two decades of experience of working with men and women to his current work as a healing the shadow practitioner. In this episode, we delve into the concept of the sovereign within and its transformative implications for leadership, personal growth, and soul awakening. We explore the essence of heart-centered leadership, including the importance of compassion and self-love, share insights into the archetypes of inflated and deflated shadows, highlighting their manifestations in everyday life, reflect on the pivotal role of purpose in anchoring a strong sense of self, and talk about the dynamics of childhood experiences

and how these early influences sculpt our path to embodying sovereignty.

And before we jump into all of that good stuff, if you are struggling with the challenges of walking your soul path in this crazy modern world and you would benefit from guidance, support and kinship, come join our Academy of the Soul, UNIO. You can find out more and join us by hopping over to BeMythical slash UNIO now.

And now,Back to this week's episode. Let's dive in.

Lian (01:27)

Hello Rod, a huge warm welcome back to the show.

Rod Boothroyd (01:33)

Thank you so much. It's great to be here. And we've got so much to talk about. I just hope this is going to be as fascinating to everybody listening as it is to you and me, because we've had quite a chat about it before we began.

Lian (01:43)

Mmm.

Yes, absolutely. This is definitely a topic that you and I could geek out on for hours, if not years. I think it clearly needed there to be this kind of like two-parter because last time our intention probably was to have the conversation we're intending to have this time, but it turns out we ended up going much deeper, I think, into the four archetypes. as a whole and of course some of your story and kind of how this has shown up for both of us along the way. And we didn't end up focusing as much as we'd intended on this, the leader within, the sovereign within. So we now would like to restore the sovereign to their rightful place, the throne at the center and go, I mean, we very much touched on that last time, but this time very much go very,

Rod Boothroyd (02:31)

Yeah.

Lian (02:46)

deeper into that and all the different ways that shows up kind of in the collective and also within the individual. So yes, let's see. Let's see if we can stay kind of on track. Wonderful. So let's begin. And again, you we definitely touched on this last time, but now again.

Rod Boothroyd (02:48)

Mm-hmm.

I'm sure we can, with enough sovereign energy we'll get.

Lian (03:13)

with the idea that this could be a standalone episode as much as I would suggest listeners listen to the last one first. Let's start with defining what is meant with the leader within.

Rod Boothroyd (03:26)

Yeah, absolutely. So I think maybe the first thing to say is that a lot of people don't like these traditional terms for the archetypes. And this one we're talking about, of course, is traditionally known as the king or queen or sovereign. And of course, that's got bad associations for people. You think back in history, the likes of Henry VIII and Richard III and all the rest of them, they were not what I would describe as mature kings.

Lian (03:53)

Mm-hmm.

Rod Boothroyd (03:53)

So this has evolved into the concept, as you rightly say, Lian, of the heart-centered leader. And this emphasizes everything about it, that this is leadership not just about self, it's leadership of whatever constitutes your world. And it's a particular form of leadership. It's heart-centered, meaning it's for the benefit, not just of yourself but for all the people and things for which you're responsible. So in a case, I think we could describe it as first among equals, that it's not just about the leader, it's about the followers as well. They're regarded as having equal importance. And yet at the same time, somehow the heart-centered leader has to maintain some degree of separation. So essentially, It's about having a respectful attitude to those for whom you're responsible and regarding their welfare as important as your own. I think that's a fairly reasonable description, thumbnail description.

Lian (04:56)

Hmm.

Wonderful, yes. And my sense is what you've just said, and I think you mentioned this, but really that description applies to the kind of inner workings as much as the outer workings.

Rod Boothroyd (05:18)

What do you mean exactly?

Lian (05:20)

As in, as we were talking about in the last episode, this notion of those core archetypes, such as the action taker, the warrior, and then the relationship between that inner leader and the warrior, I think much to a large extent could be described in the way that you're talking about as well as say, for example, a mother and her children.

Rod Boothroyd (05:31)

yes, of course.

Mm.

Lian (05:47)

It feels to me there is like a very similar relationship that's happening on the inside as well as the outside and probably needs to happen first on the inside before it can manifest in that aligned way externally.

Rod Boothroyd (05:47)

absolutely.

Yeah. Absolutely no question of that whatsoever. So if you think of the concept of heart-centred leadership, it's almost self-defining, isn't it? Heart-centred, we know what that means intuitively. It means compassion, it means love, it means respect, and of course it also means authority, but it's authority tempered by love, compassion, respect.

Lian (06:11)

Mmm.

Rod Boothroyd (06:26)

appreciation, all those other softer qualities. So yes, if you can't bring those qualities to your own inner world, how on earth are you going to bring them to your outer world? And one representation of that, I think, that's very on point these days is the question of you can't bring love or compassion to people around you.

Lian (06:29)

Mmm.

Rod Boothroyd (06:55)

not in a genuine heart-centered way at least, if you can't bring it to yourself. And interestingly enough, this whole idea of heart-centered leadership started in the world of business and industry in the 70s with Robert Greenleaf, whose view was that autocratic leadership, as in I tell you what to do and you do it and don't answer me back, because I'm in charge around here, was actually

Lian (06:59)

Hmm.

Rod Boothroyd (07:23)

not an effective way of running a business. That actually, if you offered people the opportunity to contribute to what they were doing and respected their views and gave them serious consideration, they would actually perform a lot better. And the environment that they were in would be much more pleasant to be in. And so from that...

Lian (07:26)

Mmm.

Mm. It's funny actually how radical that probably sounded at like now. It's like, of course, but yeah, there were that that was radical then.

Rod Boothroyd (07:55)

It was absolutely, he was, I think, not really taken very seriously for quite a long time. was Susan Steinbrecher, I believe, who brought this into the 21st century, I should say, in a more acceptable format, you know, in line with the expectations of the times. Yeah, so good point, good point, yeah.

Lian (08:01)

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm. And these, it seems to me often these archetype ideas, energies that we most need initially seem extreme, initially seem radical. And it's funny actually, it occurs to me, I don't know if you'd agree, that whilst we have to a large extent, understood and adopted, again, to an extent, this more kind of conscious heart-centered form of leadership in business. I still feel as though there is a kind of gap in awareness in terms of how that could show up for us personally in our inner world and in our lives. It's interesting, isn't it? It's like that idea of a heart-centered leadership often just isn't something that the average person feels applies to them.

Rod Boothroyd (09:18)

No, I'm sad to say I think that's right. And then of course the question becomes, well, why? So here's a little vignette that might go some way to explaining it. So I was waiting for my wife yesterday, parked in the car park of the supermarket, and this chap who is obviously angry, pushes his trolley to go back to his van. And there's a little girl in the trolley. I would think she was probably four or less. And she's quiet.

Lian (09:23)

Mmm.

Rod Boothroyd (09:47)

but he slams the door of the van and she starts crying. And then in response to her tears, he forcefully removes her from the trolley, forcefully puts her in the child seat and belts her up. And by this time she's screaming, of course, because she's lost any sense of connection with him and she's in total distress. He slams the door, reverses out, nearly backs into his wife who's just arriving.

Lian (10:06)

Mmm.

Rod Boothroyd (10:14)

She too has a really angry face. In they get, not a word spoken and off he drives at high speed. Now that's just a little vignette and of course we don't know what happened before and we don't know what happened afterwards. But to me it really wrenched my heart seeing that because what I assume from that little vignette that's repeated so many millions of times a day is that that girl is learning all kinds of things about herself and none of them are good.

Lian (10:23)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Rod Boothroyd (10:44)

because she will be assuming that they're behaving in that way because of her. That's what children do, 90 % or perhaps even 95 % of the time, they assume what's going on around them with their parents in particular, it's because of them. So she'll be coming to the conclusion there's something wrong with her, she's not likable, she's not lovable, who knows what, but she will be coming to some conclusion that...

Lian (11:00)

Mmm.

Rod Boothroyd (11:12)

directly impacts her capacity in later life to believe in strength of leadership, strength of personality, qualities that would allow her to be a leader. So in that vignette, I think in a way, we have a lot of the answer to the implicit question, why are there so few heart-centered leaders or indeed leaders of any kind? We are not brought up in a way

Lian (11:25)

Mmm.

Mmm, yes. Yeah.

Rod Boothroyd (11:39)

that would encourage us to develop those traits.

Lian (11:42)

Hmm. Yes. And they don't just manifest on their own. So do you think this would be a good time to look at what's present instead? And, you know, we could look at that through the other archetypes as indeed we did last time where kind of, for example, the magician takes hold and feels like, I need to run this world.

Rod Boothroyd (11:48)

Sadly not.

Mmm.

Lian (12:10)

But I would love to again, keep focused on this archetype of, I personally love the kind of more ancient archetypal language of the sovereign king and queen. So I'll probably come back and use that sometimes. But this idea of the leader within. And when we look out at the world, the fact that we do still see, you know, archetypes are by their very nature, universal, they're happening all the time, is whether we're conscious to them.

So what I'd love to look at is the ways that that can express in this more shadow expression, what we might call kind of inflated and deflated, like out in the world, like real people that

Rod Boothroyd (12:40)

Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Lian (12:54)

might be a little bit kind of caricatures of those things. I think that would be an interesting exploration.

Rod Boothroyd (12:59)

Yeah, super. Well, let's do right, let's dive right in. So what occurs to me straight away is that the primary quality that sustains a sovereign, I like the archetypal language as well, the traditional language as well, king or queen, sovereign, whatever you want to call it, is one particular thing which is a sense of being good enough. Now that's quite subtle because it's not about being good at something.

Lian (13:22)

Hmm.

Rod Boothroyd (13:29)

It's about an existential state of being that you just know you are good enough. Now I mentioned the story last time of the Singaporean girl, woman I should say, excuse my disrespectful description of her as a girl. She was a mature woman on a workshop who said when she took a test home from school, she got 98%. Her father would say, if you tried harder,

Lian (13:34)

Mm-hmm.

Rod Boothroyd (13:59)

you'd have got 100%, never once praised her for anything except achievement. If he'd said something like, okay, it doesn't matter what score you get in the test, you're still a brilliant girl and you can do anything you want or whatever, a kind of very different approach to achievement, she would have incorporated into her sense of self something like,

Lian (14:01)

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Rod Boothroyd (14:24)

Yeah, you know what, I might not have done very well at that, but actually that doesn't affect my sense of who I am. So let's bring it around to people in the real world and let's be a bit controversial, although I suspect most of your listeners won't find this controversial at all. Donald Trump. You say...

Lian (14:29)

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rod Boothroyd (14:45)

I personally think that Donald Trump is an inflated sovereign, massively inflated, perhaps the most grossly inflated sovereign we've had since, well, name another dictator, Stalin, Hitler. But the question is why? You know, he's autocratic, he's definitely not heart-centred. We know that from all the evidence that's been presented to us. And yet he has a massive following. So what on Earth is going on?

Lian (15:02)

Hmm.

Mmm.

Rod Boothroyd (15:16)

Well, I think the answer is, if you read his life story, he was so abused in his childhood. His father, in particular, was a brutal man. I think Trump, same is true of Hitler, incidentally. He suffered massively, massively, being compressed, not just compressed, but squashed, destroyed psychically, I would say.

Lian (15:27)

I didn't know that. It makes sense but I had no idea.

Mmm.

Hmm.

Rod Boothroyd (15:42)

so that any sort of incipient potential king energy, sovereign energy that he had was completely squashed, completely squashed. Now, one of the responses to the suppression of any archetypal energy is inflation and one is deflation. And you never really know which way it's gonna go because the energies you righty say Lian, it's still there, it's intrinsic in us.

Lian (15:59)

Mm-hmm.

Rod Boothroyd (16:08)

But in the case of people like Trump, what you get is an inflation that is just about equivalent to the compression of that energy in the first place. It's an attempt to compensate. And so what Trump's behaviour, to my mind, covers up is a massive deficit of self-esteem. Well, they don't think he has any self-esteem whatsoever. I just think it's non-existent.

Lian (16:18)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Rod Boothroyd (16:35)

And everything that he projects into the world is an attempt to somehow reclaim his power. And look at him, I mean, he's a tyrant and a demagogue. He's actually said that, I'll be a tyrant from day one if I'm elected. So there's no illusion in his mind about what his kind of leadership will be.

Lian (16:42)

Mm-hmm.

Has he actually used that word? How fascinating, because that is often literally the word used for that shadow expression of the archetype. That's fascinating, isn't it?

Rod Boothroyd (17:00)

He used that word, yeah. Yeah.

Kings who take power in the way that Trump might and Hitler did are called demagogues and demagoguery is using a democratic system to get elected and then to pass laws which eliminate any potential rivalry or a different kind of leader being elected. know, people have said,

Lian (17:38)

Hmm.

Rod Boothroyd (17:41)

if Trump's elected, it's the end of America. Well, it's the end of democracy for sure until something dramatic maybe restores it in the future. In Germany, it was a world war that restored democracy. Pray that that doesn't happen again. But that demagoguery is the taking of power in a democratic election and then becoming the tyrannical dictator. So.

Lian (17:49)

That's interesting.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rod Boothroyd (18:06)

Look at the massive deflation of sovereign energy and the massive impact that it has potentially on not just America, but the world in general. And there you have

Lian (18:14)

Mmm.

Rod Boothroyd (18:15)

a real life example of an extreme, extreme example of inflation.

Lian (18:20)

Hmm. It's actually very helpful to have as much as there's clearly all sorts of impacts that we wouldn't choose. It's actually helpful to have these kind of larger than life expressions of this archetypal energy. Cause it makes it so much easier to go, I get that. There is a kind of like imprint that happens that we can then recognise in self, but also others in a perhaps a less extreme form.

There is a kind of almost like cartoon like aspect of Trump that is probably not something you're going to see, you know, every day because of its extreme nature, but you're going to see like a flavour of that. And, you know, whether that's in our family members, whether that's at the workplace, at school, I think we can recognise those sort of similar traits that have shown up in people we've known. I've got a particular.

Rod Boothroyd (19:13)

Yeah.

Lian (19:17)

family member that comes to mind now. it's interesting. mean, at the time when I was younger, because of the relationship and how it affected me in difficult ways, I didn't have the understanding to see that was what was playing out for him. Now with the kind of understanding of these things, it's really helpful to look back and recognise, this was not personal to me at all.

This was him playing out that very repression and then over it like inflation because of that need to kind of feel some sense of self, some sense of worth. And so there is something helpful in being able to sort of see that in others that we've perhaps experienced the negative impacts of it from.

Rod Boothroyd (19:54)

Hmm.

Absolutely.

Well, of course, he is an extreme example. That's absolutely true. But there is one more thing that I think needs to be said. The question, of course, might well be, but why does he have such support? And the answer is he has support from people who see themselves as powerless. In other words, people who have no sovereign of their own. He's the grotesquely inflated example of leadership, which somehow they want to be.

Lian (20:23)

Mmm.

Hmm.

Rod Boothroyd (20:40)

part of because there is no internal leadership of any kind or at least it's so deflated that they don't feel like they're in control of their own lives. So they project whatever power they have, which will be in shadow, outwards onto a figurehead and therefore he rises not just because of his own inflation but because of the projections of 50 million people or 70 million people or whatever it is. Quite extraordinary.

Lian (20:41)

Hmm.

Mmm.

Mmm.

Yes, that's a really important thing. Yeah, so, yeah.

Rod Boothroyd (21:10)

So, sorry, that leads us naturally into the question, well, why do 75 million people feel so powerless and so sovereign-less that they will support a tyrant? Now, there's the real question for us in society, because sadly that probably encompasses a lot of people listening to this podcast. And you you and I, to a degree, I mean, I wouldn't describe myself as a completely balanced sovereign at all. So.

Lian (21:18)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Hmm.

Rod Boothroyd (21:41)

interesting question and I think the answer comes back. We were not brought up to be sovereigns. It's as simple as that.

Lian (21:48)

Yeah. Yes. it rarely, if ever kind of just will happen on its own. do you have an example? And again, I think there is, you know, all the examples in the way that you've spoken about this deflated archetype is very commonplace. In some ways, maybe more commonplace than the inflated version. But do you have an example of a kind of extreme

Rod Boothroyd (22:10)

Mm-hmm.

Lian (22:18)

kind of celebrity example or an example from, I don't know, film or book, someone that we could kind of look at in the way that we have just with Trump to sort of see the characteristics.

Rod Boothroyd (22:36)

good or bad.

Lian (22:39)

Could be either, just as long as they're deflated.

Rod Boothroyd (22:42)

Okay.

Well, by definition, Lian, the thing about deflated sovereigns is that they're not really very visible. One of their chief characteristics is that they hide.

Lian (22:50)

Hmm

Rod Boothroyd (22:59)

So I don't think I can bring something to mind that easily or that quickly. So if you think about the qualities of a deflated sovereign, they don't feel they're good enough. They don't feel they have the capacity to lead. They probably don't want to be seen. They probably have no concept of how to relate to others in a heart-centered way. And if they lead at all, it's probably in a very autocratic way.

So I suppose if we were to look at autocratic leaders that might take us somewhere else, Trump's one side of the equation, what about those leaders whose sovereignty is deflated? How about Boris Johnson?

Lian (23:44)

Hmm. He seems too similar to me to Trump to be the opposite end. I understand where you're going. There is a difference, but I would still feel as though there is a more inflation than not.

Rod Boothroyd (23:53)

There is a difference, isn't there?

Hmm. Well, I don't know. I think it's a difficult question to answer

Lian (24:03)

And again, of course, all of this is our own subjective opinion, but I think an interesting exploration nonetheless.

Rod Boothroyd (24:07)

Absolutely. Yeah. No, can't, I don't think I can honestly answer that question in the moment, but I do think there is a bit about Boris that he was switching from deflated to inflated quite a bit, I think, because, you know, he either by design or by

Lian (24:21)

Hmm

Rod Boothroyd (24:27)

because it was authentic, he did adopt a sort of blustering, modest persona at times, didn't he? know, it's like, I wonder if those were the moments where he was feeling that he genuinely wasn't good enough for what he was doing, because he was intellectually far inferior to many of the people that he met who could outwit him quite quickly. And that's the kind of trigger that can send somebody into a deflated spiral. I don't know. It's a difficult question to answer. What do you think?

Lian (24:40)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Yeah, I was pondering, I haven't got a particular character that comes to mind at the moment, but I was sort of thinking through sort of mythical examples and ones from folk tales of perhaps kind of those reluctant kings or queens that kind of didn't step into their power until there was a kind of real calling to them. There isn't a kind of a name that comes to mind at the moment, but I'm thinking that that's definitely an ark.

Rod Boothroyd (25:09)

yeah.

Hmm

Lian (25:23)

that you see repeated in stories where there is this kind of need to kind of take their power because of they've been deflated. And I was also thinking about how that shows up in, well, both in families within parents where you might have a parent, often they'll kind of come together, you'll have like a more, in fact, in the example I was giving earlier about a family member,

Rod Boothroyd (25:29)

Mmm.

Lian (25:50)

that it kind of worked because there was a kind of inflated sovereign in one and then in the their partner deflated. And so it kind of, it meant that it kind of worked. It didn't work. It wasn't functional, but it allowed it to keep happening because the deflated partner wouldn't kind of stand up to them. And so the rule carried on in the way that it had.

Rod Boothroyd (26:13)

Yes.

Lian (26:16)

So I think you absolutely see that in families, again, often with a kind of mother and father taking one or the other position. But I actually was thinking about the times I've seen that in the world of work, in business, particularly in the corporate setting where you absolutely will get the inflated sovereign, but there's also the deflated ones, the people pleasing bosses, the ones that are

Rod Boothroyd (26:39)

Hmm.

Lian (26:41)

can't make a decision because they're constantly kind of wanting their team to make it for them or to kind of just put off making a decision because they don't want to kind of stand for something. So I was thinking that is something that's, think, fairly common.

Rod Boothroyd (26:55)

I think you're right, and I suspect lots of people listening to this will actually have that experience of having worked with the person who can't be seen, can't stand up, can't present an opinion clearly,

Lian (27:03)

Hmm.

Rod Boothroyd (27:06)

doesn't feel good enough for the job. That's the truth of it. I mean, any person who doesn't feel good enough for the job they're in could be, might be a deflated sovereign. And it could be, of course, they're just in a job that's beyond their capacity. But nonetheless.

Lian (27:09)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Rod Boothroyd (27:21)

It's very interesting to reflect. We only see, at least on a world stage, the effects of the inflation, I think. We see much more of it than the deflated. And in a way that's quite understandable because it's the people who are drawn to that inflation who are the most visible and actually create the most havoc, unfortunately, as perhaps you might conclude from the state of the world at the moment.

Lian (27:30)

Mmm.

Yes.

Mmm.

Hmm.

Rod Boothroyd (27:50)

We're not being led by sovereigns.

Lian (27:53)

Yeah. So now let's now we've got those, I think fairly clear examples of those two extremes. Let's talk about how they may show up for an individual in like internally and perhaps a little bit more subtly because again, we're not likely to be sort of going around our business like a sort of Trump or Boris Johnson. So how might these two extremes show up?

Rod Boothroyd (28:07)

Yeah.

Hahaha.

Lian (28:21)

for the average person as they go about their day.

Rod Boothroyd (28:25)

I think one of the most remarkable ways it shows up is in people's fear of public speaking. I've worked with so many people over the... Yeah... Is it?

Lian (28:31)

Mm. That already occurred to me as my own personal example of the girls to the deep ladies offering.

Rod Boothroyd (28:41)

Gosh, I know people who are running businesses with many millions of pounds turnover and who dread standing up and speaking in front of their staff. And I don't think I have yet met anybody who wasn't nervous before standing up at a wedding and making a speech, for example. Now...

Lian (28:55)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Rod Boothroyd (29:10)

Is that a deflated sovereign? Well, I think it is, and I'll tell you why. I think way back in childhood, in the culture we live in, regrettably, many parents are so overloaded that they can't spare the time to encourage their children in those traits that would help them develop strong sovereignty. By that, I mean being seen.

Lian (29:35)

Hmm.

Rod Boothroyd (29:39)

being listened to, being honoured for their presence. I mean, you know, parents are quick to tell their children when they're doing something wrong. And I suppose in, you know, the early years of life, he's a good boy, what a good girl. But again, that's being rewarded for doing something rather than the existential position of, I'm just here, I'd like to hear some expression that affirms my existence.

Lian (30:07)

Mmm.

Rod Boothroyd (30:07)

that actually I'm okay. End of story.

Lian (30:10)

Yes, I matter, I'm loved, I'm accepted.

Rod Boothroyd (30:14)

Yeah, because it's that that builds sovereignty in the sense that it builds a strong sense of self-esteem, is not, self-esteem more, I would say, is more based on what you can do, whereas self-worth is literally that. I don't have to do anything to feel that I'm a worthy person, worthy of love, appreciation, honouring, respect. And that's where people, I think, are not.

Lian (30:31)

Mm-hmm.

Rod Boothroyd (30:43)

really encouraged in childhood,

Lian (30:47)

Can I just jump in there? It feels to me, I don't know if you agree, and I don't mean this in a kind of conspiracy way at all. It's more just kind of the way of things, or certainly the way of things in this modern world.

I think in order for our modern system, let's call it to work, it almost is, it needs to be built on this sense that people need to kind of do the right thing, fit in, be productive, be part of keeping the system going in order for it to keep going. And so if there is this deep sense of our own intrinsic worth,

Rod Boothroyd (31:18)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Lian (31:31)

I think there is this, and again, I think this is all happening at a subconscious level. I'm not saying this is, I'm not saying this is like anyone sat and planned this out. I think people would be making very different choices than blindly kind of like being conditioned to fit into a system. So there is definitely this sense of, a very early age, children being conditioned with reward and punishment to do, to like, to be and do in a certain way.

Rod Boothroyd (31:43)

Yeah.

Lian (32:01)

that is based on prioritising that as opposed to building that innate sense of I'm good enough just as I am, in whatever language that is, that sense of wholeness of worth no matter what.

Rod Boothroyd (32:11)

Yeah, absolutely.

Regrettably, I think you're spot on. I think society has evolved into a place where it's extraordinarily difficult for parents to bring up children in a way that affirms their existence. For one thing, I'm coming to see how important it is for parents and children to spend a huge amount of time together in a very kind of positive, loving way, far more regrettably than most parents.

Lian (32:28)

Mmm.

Hmm.

Rod Boothroyd (32:45)

can actually manage in the society that we're living in. I know several families where the children have not been conventionally educated at school. They've spent, because of the circumstances in which they're living, all day, every day with their parents. And they are some of the most delightful, charming, and very different children that I know.

Lian (32:46)

Yes. I agree.

Mmm.

Rod Boothroyd (33:10)

And you might say, well, of course they are because their parents are so different, living outside the system. And that could be true, but I think it's got a lot more to do with the fact that there is this almost constant presence of the parents who are able to be relaxed and loving and with their children and spend enjoyable time just being present with them and guiding them in every little thing and nuance of activity through the day, rather than...

Lian (33:28)

Mmm.

Rod Boothroyd (33:39)

coming home fractures from school and fractures from work and then immediately arriving in some kind of conflictual situation that destroys connection and affection and love. Yeah, I agree with you totally. And I don't have a remedy for that because we're talking about something so structural. But I think the saving grace of it all is that those who are motivated to can develop a higher level of sovereignty if they set their minds to it.

Lian (33:48)

Hmm.

Yes, that as ever, it's a cliche, but it's like change starts with ourselves. And that's the wonderful thing. We don't need to sort of take on the whole world and you might see if we can make changes out there. We can absolutely start inside, which is the source of all change anyway.

Rod Boothroyd (34:17)

Hmm.

Absolutely. So if I came to you as a client and said, look, my life's a mess. I just need help here. How would you start if that was a starting point? You know, I just don't love myself. So here I am. What can you do for me? Where do we go from here?

Lian (34:47)

Well, I mean, that's probably too long to go into, but ultimately, the work that we are talking about here without that, and again, whatever language you want to use for that, but that kind of internal structure that I think that for many, again, there is a really important discovery period that these energies that we're talking about do exist within.

Rod Boothroyd (35:00)

Hmm.

Lian (35:15)

because we're in a culture where these things just aren't spoken about. There isn't a knowing that there is this sovereign within. So, you know, just this very conversation, whether it takes place like this on a podcast or between a teacher and student, client and coach, I think that just recognition, like this is something I have within me and I can connect to and nurture and grow. I think that in itself is like the such a powerful thing.

Rod Boothroyd (35:15)

Yes.

Right.

Absolutely.

Yes, absolutely. I completely agree. But I'd like to just be a bit more specific because I think there is one key starting point for people in that position and it's tangential really. And it's finding self-love. Because I regard that as the foundation of self-worth and of being able to be confident in the world.

Lian (36:01)

Mm-hmm.

Rod Boothroyd (36:10)

The self-love means self-acceptance and I don't see that many people who are fully accepting of themselves. And to be even more specific, I think what it really means is acceptance of the inner child and love of the inner child. For most people, there isn't even an awareness of that part of them, except of course when it erupts in a temper tantrum or some irrational behaviour which is...

Lian (36:25)

Hmm.

Rod Boothroyd (36:37)

leaves the person baffled. So what did I do? What was I thinking? Well, the answer is you were not in charge of your inner world and part of it burst out. So to me, that's the key to everything. Thank you. And if business people come to me and say, you know, I've got this, this and this as an issue and I can't do with it and it's too much for me, I usually try and encourage them to start the work.

Lian (36:45)

Mmm.

Yes, wholeheartedly agree.

Rod Boothroyd (37:04)

by looking at their relationship with the younger parts of themselves. Because in a way it's the younger parts which can disrupt the expression of adult sovereignty, queenship, kingship, heart-centred leadership.

Lian (37:17)

Hmm. Yes. I'm really glad we've taken it here. It seems funny actually that it's taken us so long to do so, but I think it's perfect. and yes, I, I completely agree. And it feels to me the two go hand in hand in that, that recognition that there is this, you know, latent in most people, this latent part that can be developed as this inner sovereign. But there's, you know, for me, that goes hand in hand with this sense of like this inner parent, that there is someone actually finally to see love, accept, guide that inner child. And so for me, there is something so, so profound in sort of both happening kind of like almost at once where And this is not intended as a criticism of, you know, other inner child work, because I think, you know, in any form it takes, it's so much better than not doing that work. But I think there is something very powerful about doing it from this understanding that there is a part inside that can act as the parent, that can act as the leader. And if that relationship between the two...

Rod Boothroyd (38:23)

Yeah.

Lian (38:40)

is really as you know if we could boil it down to the simplest things it's like those two and the relationship between them that's like at the heart of all change all healing.

Rod Boothroyd (38:49)

Absolutely, absolutely. It really is. There's no question of that. We are equipped genetically to fulfil those roles and it is easier to fulfil them when we've had a decent parent in our own childhood. But if we haven't had the benefit of that or even adequate parenting, we can still, as you've implied a moment ago, do the work later in life that will develop that inner love, compassion, heart-centered quality between the wounded inner child and the parent part of us. And then everything can change. Everything does change. And of course, the trouble is it requires commitment, it requires time. The trouble, the joy of it is it requires commitment and time, just like bringing up a real physical child requires time and commitment. It's like...

Lian (39:42)

Yes.

Rod Boothroyd (39:46)

The number of men, Lian, the number of men I've worked with who've come to me and said things like, I don't understand why my child has suddenly started behaving so badly. I mean, he's been great and really nice for five years and now suddenly he's kicking off. And then the question becomes always, and what happened to you when you were five? And generally they went through some trauma. And what happens later in life is that when they,

Lian (40:07)

Mmm.

Rod Boothroyd (40:15)

their five-year-old inner wounded child sees the external children five years old being well looked after, the inner child who didn't get so well looked after at five-year-old starts kicking off and creating real problems for everybody because he's jealous. This is how real this is. It's how real it is. I wish we could sort of put it into schools and bring it to everybody, but know, fat chance.

Lian (40:27)

Mmmmm

Yes. Gosh. It really is. Yeah.

Ugh.

Rod Boothroyd (40:45)

fat chance.

Lian (40:45)

Yeah, but hey, you know, it has to start somewhere and then it will ripple out and it is rippling out. So, you know, in its own time that will happen. So we are unbelievably kind of coming up on time. And I feel like, again, we've barely scratched the surface because we keep kind of going deep down a rabbit hole, coming back up again. It's like, hang on, we need to move along a bit.

Rod Boothroyd (40:53)

Yes, very much so.

Lian (41:14)

So before we finish, you tell me what you feel is really important that we now focus on.

Rod Boothroyd (41:22)

You've been in this conversation right now between us. Well, I was just thinking a good ending might be just to quickly run through without necessarily analysing them in any detail, some of the really important qualities of the fullness of the heart-centred leader, just simply to list them and maybe say a sentence or two about them. What do you reckon?

Lian (41:24)

Yes. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yes, let's go for that. can't promise. I'll hold back from diving in to analyse them with you, but we'll see where we get to.

Rod Boothroyd (41:51)

You

Yes, but you see, I love this. It's a bit like Alice in Wonderland, as you say, going down the rabbit hole. Look, what a wonderful world she entered into, you know, but that was fantastic. And who doesn't love a good story? So, heart-centered leadership. Well, that speaks for itself. We've already discussed that. But there's something more subtle about it, which is effective presence. And what that means is the effect that you have by your presence on other people. In other words, what's the tonality in the room where you are present?

Lian (42:00)

Exactly.

Mmm.

Rod Boothroyd (42:28)

Do people start looking around and feeling edgy and anxious or do they just relax and sort of become more open and comfortable? And, you know, that's just about having that internal sense of, I am okay. In fact, I'm fine, whatever happens. And in fact, I'm so okay that I can be compassionate and loving and generous, which is not to say that a sovereign would avoid conflict. Of course, conflict sometimes is very necessary. Resilience.

Lian (42:35)

Hmm.

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rod Boothroyd (42:57)

taking brickbats and keep on coming, you know, and just say, okay, well, that's the way it is. I can be compassionate to the people who don't have my perspective. Affirming and blessing, that's particularly important for parents, of course. I think it was Bradshaw, John Bradshaw, he wrote Homecoming, didn't he? The book on inner child work. I think it was he who said,

Lian (43:00)

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

That's right, yes.

Rod Boothroyd (43:26)

There's only three things a child needs to hear from their parent and they are, I love you, I'm proud of you, and you have everything you need to be a strong, loving woman or man, those three things. Now, I think he's onto something, but it's not the whole story. I think a why is necessary. I love you because you have all you need to be a strong, loving woman because.

Lian (43:39)

Mmm.

Yes.

Rod Boothroyd (43:53)

you know, because it contextualizes it. But you see the affirmation in that. Mentor and mentee, that if you are in a position of leadership, you're mentoring somebody, somewhere, somehow. If that's your own children, your employees at work, your friends, people in a sovereign circle group of men or women or mixed gender group. And you also have a mentor yourself.

Lian (43:57)

Hmm.

Rod Boothroyd (44:20)

Somebody who can advise you and support you in kingship or queenship. Support network, just out of interest. How many support or group circles have you been in in your life, Lian?

Lian (44:36)

my goodness. it's funny, actually, this is very timely, without going off into another tangent. It's actually quite a timely question at the moment, but, yeah, countless, absolutely countless. And I was reflecting as, as I was listening to you, how the, the kind of peer support, mentorship,

that that what they'll need that actually will support us like changes as, as we develop that will change. And in some ways it's a really good clue as to where we are in terms of like, what do we actually need? What have we outgrown? What have we left behind? What do we need now? And what I was just reflecting on is at the moment I've, I've, it's kind of happened almost organically where. a circle of women, I mean, at the moment is focused very much more on our kind of spiritual path. And that be really the kind of reason we're together and working together in a, it's not on a kind of work capacity, but as in like, there is a very clear understanding, like that's why we're together. It's about our own spiritual path and also the expression of that in our, in our work.

Rod Boothroyd (45:47)

Mmm. Mmm.

Yeah.

Lian (46:06)

And that wouldn't have been necessarily the case, however many years ago. I mean, I did have versions of that, but there is again, a particular flavour, a particular depth, a particular type of support that we need. And it will change over time. But in direct answer to your question, yes, I have had many different circles of that kind over the years.

Rod Boothroyd (46:17)

you

Beautiful.

But what you've just put your finger on is so, so beautiful because this is another intrinsic quality. Perhaps, you know, after a period of experiencing sovereignty in its more practical forms, there is an evolution towards spirituality. And I think it's a real aspect of spirituality and personal development that people move in that direction.

Lian (46:45)

Mmm.

Rod Boothroyd (46:53)

doesn't have to be a consistent straight line. My own experience has been very much a kind of up and down curve. But the rationale is that to be a sovereign, you need a connection to something greater than yourself. And that can be many things and come in many different forms. But it's certainly something that I would put under the heading of spiritual. you finger on absolutely something critical to fully develop sovereignty.

Lian (47:04)

Hmm.

Yes.

Hmm.

Rod Boothroyd (47:22)

And just to complete that brief list, there are some more practical ones, integrity, responsibility, and authenticity. I am who I say I am. If I do something wrong, if I break a commitment, I do something to put things right. I take responsibility for the consequences of my actions. And in that, when we're talking about deflated sovereigns earlier on, and I couldn't really think of anybody, you rightly mentioned people in business. And what has just come to mind as I talk about integrity and responsibility is the fact that I used to work for a chemical company and they were obliged to report chemical leaks to the health and safety executive, obviously. And there was a set limit at which a report, a leak or an accident had to be reported.

And I think in the time I was there, which was 12 years, there were three or four of those. Then not long before I left, I discovered purely by accident that every single day or week there was a leak and they were never reported. These were leaks into canals and rivers where people would be paddling or playing and When I thought about it, I could see that the reason for this, I regret to say, in one meeting where people were talking about a leak, I even found them laughing about it, which I assume in retrospect was because of their own embarrassment. But if ever there were an example of deflated sovereignty, that was it. And then the thought occurred to me, what happened to them when they drove through the factory gates in the morning?

Lian (48:55)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Rod Boothroyd (49:08)

that allowed them to abandon their sense of responsibility to their wives and children or their husbands and children or society as a whole and go in and support, actively support, because that's what they were doing, this illegal activity of potentially dangerous and in some cases very real dangerous of pollution. And what happened when they drove out of the factory gates that turned into decent family men and women?

Lian (49:32)

Hmm.

Rod Boothroyd (49:38)

who would care for their families. Extraordinary. But if ever there were an example of deflated sovereignty, that is it. And in fact, that brings to mind those who are brave enough to blow the whistle on such practices. We've seen that a lot in the NHS recently. And what happens to them? They're usually out of a job very soon. Then they have to fight for compensation. The culture is corrupt in that it doesn't reflect.

Lian (49:42)

Mmm.

Yes.

Hmm.

Mmm.

Rod Boothroyd (50:07)

the values that a true sovereign embodies. Now I'm not saying that's universal and it's a rather extreme statement, but I think there's a huge amount of truth in it that integrity is lacking and you see that, as you rightly said, in industry particularly with the deflated sovereigns. And so that would bring us on to a few more like present.

Lian (50:10)

Mmm.

Yes.

Hmm.

Rod Boothroyd (50:30)

being principled, knowing what you stand for, knowing when you have to speak up because you literally don't have a choice according to your own moral code. And of course there are other things too that we could talk about. Lifelong learning that actually you don't become, remember Victor Meldrew, did you ever see him? Yeah, the day he left his job, did he become a deflated sovereign?

Lian (50:37)

Mmm.

Mm hmm. Yes.

Rod Boothroyd (50:55)

His life had no meaning. And of course we had a great deal of laughs. If anybody doesn't know what I'm talking about, it's a TV comedy series from the early 2000s, I think. But Victor left his job and became a laughing stock because he had no purpose, he had no mission, he had nothing to do. And his life descended into chaos, a total deflation of sovereignty after he'd left his job. It was very funny though, I have to say.

Lian (51:05)

Hmm.

Mmm.

Rod Boothroyd (51:22)

But of course it's not funny if you happen to be the person living that life, lifelong learning, that something about sovereignty is a lifelong commitment. And of course that means embracing some purpose, some purpose. We haven't really spoken much about purpose, but having a clear purpose, what am I here to do? You and I were talking before we began, this question of what am I here to do came up between us, didn't it?

Lian (51:26)

Yes.

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rod Boothroyd (51:49)

I mean, if people don't know what they're here for on the planet at any stage of their life, then they don't have a guiding principle, I think.

Lian (52:00)

I think that's a really, really beautiful point to end with. it's that question of whether we want to call it purpose or calling has become more and more kind of the sort of focal point, the North Star of the work that Jonathan and I do with people.

I mean, it has now been the case for many years, but it was a kind of quite an organic thing that happened where we started to realize how foundational that was to so much else of someone's path. And that without that, it's very hard. I mentioned this in our last conversation, this notion of living fully and dying complete. I think that's probably impossible without that sense of kind of what I'm here to do.

Rod Boothroyd (52:50)

Mmm. Yeah.

Lian (52:55)

but what we also realised is through that, devotion to discovering one's purpose and living it out, it, it naturally calls you into the very work that we're talking about and beyond. we just keep like the more, cause it more gets revealed, doesn't it? It's not a kind of often a sort of simple one-liner that

Rod Boothroyd (53:11)

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Lian (53:21)

it's like never changes. It's like as soon as we start to touch into that sense of purpose and step into that, we discover more. You know, as you say, we were talking about this before we started recording, where I sharing the work I'm doing right now in the Rosequest and having this sense of, my goodness, this is the sort of deepest truth in terms of my soul's expression I've found so far. And

Rod Boothroyd (53:31)

Absolutely.

bit.

Lian (53:50)

that that's been because of all these years of going deeper and deeper and then more gets revealed, more gets revealed, more gets asked of me, but that then illuminates where my work lies, what more I need to reclaim, where we need to heal, where we need to expand. And so there's many other routes into this. But again, that's why

Rod Boothroyd (53:58)

Thank you.

Lian (54:14)

For Jonathan and I, so much of our work now is centered around that because it kind of calls everything else into the light, into our awareness to then take conscious action upon.

Rod Boothroyd (54:26)

Absolutely. fantastic. I couldn't have put it better. It's a beautiful, beautiful description of a sovereign's evolution. And I do want to add in case what you've just said frightens people, there's always discernment. You have a choice in the matter. You have a choice in the matter. And the point about the sovereign's choice is it's an informed choice that's made from more...

Lian (54:34)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Rod Boothroyd (54:52)

impulses, knowledge and wisdom in the present than perhaps your choices in inverted commas in the past have been, which are more likely to have been driven by history and programming from other people and blah, blah, blah. But yeah, absolutely, fear, absolutely. But I think that was beautiful. And I would sum it up by saying you're only ever given the challenges that you can cope with, even if you think you can't.

Lian (54:59)

Hmm.

Hmm. Yeah.

Mmm.

Rod Boothroyd (55:21)

you haven't got a challenge facing you that you cannot cope with.

Lian (55:25)

Yeah. Beautiful. Right. Well, I think, I think we did what we intended to do, Rod. We kept that sovereign sense of focus. And so where can listeners find out more about you, your book, your work?

Rod Boothroyd (55:43)

Well, thank you. That's very kind of you. I have this book, which I held up last time, Finding the King Within, and it is in fact very relevant to both genders. I wrote it for men because I perceive men are more lacking in sovereignty than women. That's the truth of it. Now that's an opinion, whether it's right or not, I don't know. But perhaps a reason for that book being apparently oriented towards men is the fact that

Lian (56:02)

Hmm.

Rod Boothroyd (56:13)

I don't see a lot of damage being done to the world by women. I see a lot of damage being done to the world by men. And therefore, in my mind, if this can change at least some men's lives for the better, then I would be delighted with that. And there is another book which I can't immediately see that I'd like to recommend. It's an extraordinary book on relational

Lian (56:17)

Hmm.

Rod Boothroyd (56:43)

healing. I've never come across anything quite so powerful and on point. So perhaps I can let you know the title and the author and you could put it up in the notes afterwards. Would that be? Yeah, great stuff. Yeah. Well, thank you. It's a pleasure to see you again, as always. And so I think it just remains for us to say au revoir.

Lian (56:55)

Yes, more than happy to do that. Yes, your recommendation is gratefully received.

Yes, thank you so much Rod. Again, this has been such a pleasure. I absolutely love where this journey took us. Thank you for being you and for doing the work you do. So appreciated. Mutual appreciation society.

Rod Boothroyd (57:16)

Hmm.

To which I can only say straight back at you, really.

Lian (57:27)

you so much Rod. Yes.

Rod Boothroyd (57:27)

Till next time.

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