Core, neo & traditional shamanism: How to choose your path (transcript)

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Episode Transcript:

Lian (00:00)

Do all shamanic paths carry the same purpose, power and protection? In this episode, I'm joined by two remarkable guests, Isaac Wortly and Eddy Elsey.

Isaac and Eddy are both apprentices of a traditional Mongolian shamanic lineage Founded by their teacher at Mother Tree Shamanism. Isaac is an English shaman who experienced a calling from a very young age. That call led him to seek out an authentic teacher of Mongolian shamanism. And over 10 years ago, he was initiated by his teacher and has been a practicing apprentice ever since.

Whereas Eddy, like so many of us in the West, came from a neo-shamanic background. But after becoming seriously unwell, he found his way to the traditional Mongolian lineage and has been apprenticing for the past three years. Together we explore the healing depth and rigour of traditional shamanism, especially within the Mongolian lineage that all three of us now follow. Isaac shares the incredible story of being drawn to Mongolia from the age of 10 without knowing why. And how stepping onto the path he was truly called to instantly shifted years of illness and struggle. talks about how years of neo-shamanic practice left him feeling broken and ill, and how the traditional path became the turning point in his healing and transformation. We explore the distinctions between traditional core and neo-shamanism, and why those differences might really matter.

So much can get lost when the West tries to recreate ancient systems. And sometimes what's lost is exactly what makes the path work. We also look at what truly makes a lineage powerful, its scientific nature, the role of rigorous mind training, the depth of karmic connection with the teacher, and the understanding that perhapsthis isn't something that can be covered in a few weekend workshops. It's a path that spans lifetimes.

This is a conversation about remembering what's real and how easy it is to forget and what becomes possible when we finally return.

And before we jump into all of that good stuff, if you're struggling with the challenges of walking your soul path in this crazy modern world and would benefit from guidance, kinship and support, come join our Academy of the Soul, UNIO. You can find out more by hopping on over to bemythical.com slash UNIO or click the link in the description.

And now back to this week's episode. Let's dive in.

Lian (02:34)

Hello, Isaac. Hello, Eddy. Welcome to the show.

Isaac Wortley (02:38)

Thank you for having us.

Eddy Elsey (02:40)

Hi, it's really nice to be here, thanks.

Lian (02:42)

⁓ my pleasure entirely. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. And I often like to begin episodes with a little bit of a origin story. And I know you both have got really interesting. I'm lucky enough to already have a bit of a sense as to what has brought you both to your practice, your path today. So I'd love to just begin with sharing a little bit of that with listeners.

And Isaac, you've got, I'd say really, I don't think I've come across someone from the West with your story. There is something, you know, just so unique in what brought you to where you are today. So would you just share a little bit I know as ever it's kind of like, what do I leave out? How much, how do I squeeze all of that into one? But as much as you think ⁓ would be helpful for listeners to understand about you.

Isaac Wortley (03:39)

So as you mentioned, yeah, it's a long story, but basically I was called to shamanism from a very young age. I felt this pull to Mongolia. And as the years progressed, basically my health declined and declined, and the pull only grew stronger. I first went Mongolia when I was 16 years old, and I found my teacher when I was 20, 21. When, well, just turned 21.

I'd, when I found her, I found them, I didn't even realise they were a shamanic practitioner, I was just, I have to speak to this person.

Lian (04:19)

Mmm.

Isaac Wortley (04:22)

And then obviously my health problems got diagnosed, the cause of it was a shamanic cord. And the moment that I was accepted as a student and began practicing and learning and doing the things, all my health problems that had plagued me for years went away.

And it was something that I never thought would have happened. Like all the health problems went away. Even the smallest ones. And every part of my life, my family's life and everyone who were like close to me, everything just improved.

Lian (05:00)

Would you mind sharing a little bit ⁓ about the kind of health problems that you'd experienced?

Isaac Wortley (05:09)

⁓ Yes, so there was a lot of physical ailments. There would be various like attacks, was even non-epileptic seizures and other things. ⁓ But there'd be like attacks where it would come over where I would be unable to walk. Most people when they think of shamanic sickness in the West, they have a tendency of thinking it's like a psychological problem, like a mental health issue. But traditionally, the traditional view on shamanic sickness is it's more physical ailments, obviously mental, ⁓ psychological issues go along with it, but shamans are the most balanced people. They maintain the balance within themselves as well, so it's not the wounded healer paradigm that most people think of. It's more physical ailments, physical signs and symptoms. And just because you have physical signs and symptoms doesn't mean that you're meant to be a shaman. Same with psychological symptoms.

Lian (06:00)

Mmm.

Isaac Wortley (06:08)

that has to be checked out to be verified by, in traditional cultures it would be an elder that would verify that because there's many causes of problems that could mimic it.

Lian (06:14)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that really makes sense. And what's your sense now as to why those health conditions all, you know, seemingly miraculously were alleviated when you were accepted onto the path?

Isaac Wortley (06:37)

So, so correct me if I'm wrong, your question is asking me why, did they go away?

Lian (06:44)

Yes.

Isaac Wortley (06:47)

because it was a pull towards the practice. So when I started practicing it, the pull disappeared because I was doing what I was meant to do.

Lian (06:52)

Hmm, I see. Hmm.

Yeah. And what's your understanding of why? Again, it's an unusual, there's, there's, you know, plenty of people that would say, I felt a call to shamanism or even a call to a particular lineage or part of the world. But I think what's unusual about your story is it began so young and you also prioritized it in a way that I think again is really rare. It isn't like you had, know, like say for example, in my case, I spent years in the corporate world in a very kind of, know, mainstream life.

Um, you, as far as I understand, just didn't have that at all. You kind of had such a strong sense of this, this is where I need to go. What's your understanding as to why that is?

Isaac Wortley (07:54)

I guess you could say karma. Karma. And not only that, it would be... I just had this sense from such a age, honestly, I can't even explain it myself. The only way I can explain it is karma. From such a young age, from the age of 10, I knew I had to go to that part of the world. There was no doubt in my mind. It was the only driving factor. was the force that drove me.

Lian (08:08)

Mm.

Hmm.

Isaac Wortley (08:22)

Obviously yes, I have worked in, you could say, more corporate jobs in the time being, because obviously shamanism is a duty, not a

Lian (08:31)

I have to question the word corporate when it comes to you. I kind of can't.

Isaac Wortley (08:36)

Not for us, but...

More so, but I've definitely been involved in various businesses, teaching positions and other things as I've... ⁓ Because shamanism is a duty, not just a career. So like most shamans are traditionally obviously were herders. They were herders in addition to their shamanic duties. They did the same as everyone else and then they have more to do on top.

Lian (08:48)

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Mmm.

Yeah, it wasn't a glamorous like, ⁓ yay, I get to be the shaman.

Isaac Wortley (09:15)

No, if anything, people, a lot of people try to reject their calling when they're, when they can, when they find out.

Lian (09:23)

Hmm. That makes sense.

There's, I suspect we will get a bit more into this as the episode goes on. But as you mentioned karma there, there's something that has surprised me actually is that, I guess, sort of weaving a Buddhism with Mongolian shamanism that I think we'll go a bit deeper into later in the show. But I'm saying it now partly because I think words like

Eddy Elsey (09:40)

Thanks.

Lian (09:56)

karma have been a bit kind of appropriated kind of like by our just sort of mainstream use of them if that makes sense. Where I know that when you say it you actually mean it in its real sense, like with an understanding of what that means. And so in case we don't get further into that, I just want to make that point now. You're not just sort saying it as a throwaway comment, which it might have sounded like is how you meant it.

Isaac Wortley (10:23)

no, it's the law of cause and effect. So every action that we do has a reaction. In this life or previous lives. So obviously from our previous lives we carry imprints over into this life. When you talk about the blending of the Buddhism and the Shamanism, a lot of that comes from the fact that, especially when people talk about Tibetan Buddhism.

Lian (10:24)

Mm-hmm.

Isaac Wortley (10:53)

Before Buddhism came to there, had a pre-existing shamanic culture. So as Buddhism came to those countries like Mongolia, Tibet, the shamanic traditions were blended and absorbed within Buddhism. So a lot of these concepts of even some of the spirits names and some of the things like that, some of the rituals, they are actually pre-Buddhist shamanic rituals that have just been

absorbed over time into the practice. There are lot of similarities between the two. Both of them have their own place. both of them are trying to alleviate suffering for an individual. Buddhism, the goal is enlightenment. With Shamanism, the goal is bringing balance.

Lian (11:24)

you

Yeah, and it's something that I've certainly very much appreciated about traditional Mongolian shamanism, and I definitely would like to get a bit further into that. But for the moment, I'd love to hear a bit more about your story, Eddy. And again, different to Isaac's, but really fascinating. And so I'd love to hear, I guess, what first called you? to shamanism as a whole, which, you like me was more what we might call, in fact, I'd love to go bit deeper into this kind of like the terminology, know, neo-shamanism, core shamanism, but for the moment, what called you initia lly into that as a path and then kind of like how you've ended up finding yourself on a traditional path?

Eddy Elsey (12:35)

Well, unlike Isaac, you know, up to the age I was about 22 or 23, I couldn't have been less interested in spirituality. It just didn't cross my radar. My family wasn't religious. So I didn't really even experience religion. I spent most of my late teens and early twenties trying to find myself in other ways. I did a lot of partying and used to put on raves with my friends and spent a lot of time.

Lian (13:03)

the age-old way of trying to find yourself.

Eddy Elsey (13:05)

spent a lot of time at the football and that led me to some very difficult mental health issues. I had really intense anxiety. I suffered a lot from OCD. I bounced around therapy for a while and eventually decided to go to a yoga class. It didn't really help me that much.

I ended up training as a yoga teacher, but it just wasn't my path really. then, like a lot of people in the West, I got introduced to practices like Reiki and eventually through sort of experiencing different ceremonies and different kind of things that were on offer in London, which is where I'm from. I found neo-shamanism, which I didn't really know it was neo-shamanism at the time, but I went to a few... core practitioner training days and no I felt a pull towards that you know I felt a pull towards shamanism and became very interested in it and trained in neo-shamanism for three years and it taught me a lot it taught me a lot about you have a dedication needed and taught me a lot about patience and diligence and taught me you know somewhat a lot about myself and

Lian (14:30)

Hmm.

Eddy Elsey (14:31)

opened me up to a really beautiful community, know, and spending a lot of time in nature as a guy from London. That's not something I really did growing up. And so that part of it was very, very beneficial. And after I trained, when I took it out into the world and started seeing people for healings and clients and, really, really practising in a hardcore way, the way I'd been taught, I started to become very sick, sicker than I'd ever been. And I had, like I said, pre-existing.

anxieties and OCDs, but they went from maybe a three out of 10 to like an eight out of 10. Started to get really intense physical symptoms and inflammation and heart palpitations. I started to become very worried because no one in the neo-Traumatic community could properly diagnose me. I went for brain scans, blood tests, x-rays as well, and no one in the Western medical community could diagnose me.

I was really, really sick and bedridden really. ⁓ And my wife started to get very sick as well. And generally our lives just started to fall apart health-wise, finance-wise. Everything just seemed very, very dark. And I had a pull then, you know, to go to Mongolia. I was 30 and I was put in touch. with the woman who was Isaac's teacher, but I didn't know that at the time. I'd never met Isaac and would later become my teacher. And similarly to Isaac, I didn't know she was a practitioner. I was put in touch with her from someone who I, in the shamanic scene in the West, who I respect very, very, very much so. So I knew that whoever it was was going to be a very legitimate source of, of shamanism. And Within three days of being in Mongolia, I'd been diagnosed and treated, treated ritually within a week. And then given the treatment plan within a year, I had basically recovered within another year after that. It better than ever. I have been training now for three years in traditional shamanism, traditional Mongolian shamanism. And so it was, yeah, a very different journey. than Isaacs. ⁓ but yeah, that was it. was it really.

Lian (17:08)

Mm, fascinating. Do you mind sharing a little bit about, ⁓ because I suspect people listening are going to be like, my goodness, so you're not just talking about you had a little bit wrong with you, you know, as you described, you were having all kinds of ⁓ diagnostic treatments, trying to understand what sounds like very severe health conditions. And then seemingly in one one ritual and of course, you know, whatever it is you're asked to do in the year following it went away. Was that the same reason as Isaac shared that you were kind of called to Shamanism and it all alleviated because you'd found your path or was this something different? I'd love to know a bit more about that.

Eddy Elsey (17:58)

was something different. My issues were self-inflicted. I made myself sick by my previous practice, essentially. Part of the reason was doing too much too soon. Part of the reason was that the practices I learnt were inadequate for doing the work that I was doing and working with people. Part of it was my own karma and my own destiny. Part of it was my own...

you know, mind, my own greed and my own misunderstanding of how the world works and of myself. So there were many different factors. And not one person is to blame. I am as much to blame than anyone. ⁓ So I'm not attacking neo-shamanism or anything like that, but this is just my personal experience. So there were many, many factors. think...

Lian (18:35)

Mm-hmm.

Eddy Elsey (18:54)

What was outlined to me Mongolia is they understood all of those factors and how they were intertwined. That was what was different. Western medicine told me, you know, from a Western medical perspective, okay, there's the issues with your heart. you know, you're, you've got really intense anxiety, but there was no solution. ⁓ Western shamanic practitioners could see that there was something wrong with me and, know, they say a dark energy, but they couldn't.

Lian (19:00)

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Eddy Elsey (19:23)

diagnose what it was, no, and they couldn't get rid of it. So there lots of different pieces of the puzzle in the West, and it's only when I went to Mongolia that they had the traditional knowledge to very quickly put all of those pieces together and give me a clear picture of what was happening. And not only could they do that, they could give me a solution to how I would get my life back. And everything happened exactly the way that they said it would.

Lian (19:37)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Wow. was there, although it took time for you to fully recover, was there an immediate shift after that ritual in that first week you were there?

Eddy Elsey (19:57)

Yeah.

Yeah. ⁓

After the first ritual, the main problem went away. I suffered from very horrendous intrusive thoughts and they just basically disappeared. Then the rest of it was, you know, putting myself back together. You know, if we have a splinter and the splinter gets infected, when you take out the splinter, the infection still remains.

Lian (20:16)

Mmm.

Mmm. ⁓

Eddy Elsey (20:31)

And so, you know, metaphorically, the splints had been removed, but my body was, mind were infected. And, and that, that takes time for everyone. But things got better and better and better and better. It wasn't just one day, everything disappeared. My life went from strength to strength to strength to strength and everything started building back. Which doesn't mean it was easy, you know.

Lian (20:37)

Mmm, that's good analogy.

Hmm.

Hmm.

Eddy Elsey (21:00)

on my end, it took a lot of practice and faith and but that's a tiny, tiny price to pay for the recovery.

Lian (21:11)

Yeah. And I know that you were, if I don't mean this insultingly, I think many of us can have shared these kind of experiences. I think you went from being quite almost like a bit of an evangelist for shamanism sort of, you know, back then. And as you say, we're kind of out and practicing and talking about it. And then from my understanding, you've taken quite a of backseat and a break from that.and kind of only just more recently started to kind of emerge back into practicing as you are. Is that accurate?

Eddy Elsey (21:48)

Yeah, very accurate. You before I went to Mongolia, I really thought I knew what I was talking about. I really thought I was, you know, I'd done my training, I knew what I needed to know. I really knew what shamanism was. When I got to Mongolia, all of that shattered, you know, and I didn't realise before I went to Mongolia that the reason I was sick was because there was an issue with my personal practice. I didn't think those two things were linked. I actually think that

Lian (22:16)

Mmm.

Eddy Elsey (22:17)

Thought that was the only thing that was keeping a little shred of ⁓ positivity in my life. So that was a shock to me. And it was very, very humbling. And it was difficult to navigate in a way, because a lot of my ⁓ ego and self-worth were attached to my previous practice. you know,

Lian (22:26)

Hmm.

Eddy Elsey (22:43)

I let everything go and took a back seat and became an estate agent and just concentrated on my healing and you know.

Lian (22:51)

It always makes me laugh. I love the just complete juxtaposition of shamanism and being an estate agent. I love that.

Eddy Elsey (22:58)

Yeah, well, I needed, you know, like Isaac said, shamanism is a duty and it's not a job and I definitely conflated those two and it was my main source of income and I gave that up. It wasn't difficult in that sense to give it up because, like I said, my life got better and better.

Lian (23:06)

Hmm.

But it required something didn't it? you ensure your whole identity shifted and you had to rebuild a life career and everything. So yeah, that's quite an undertaking.

Eddy Elsey (23:30)

Yes, I did, but it was only for my benefit, you know, something that I had to do. And, you know, I'm hugely grateful for the guidance that allowed me to do that. And now three years later, you know, everything is back to normal and everything is positive again. it's, yeah, it was quite the journey. But in the scheme of things, you know, really didn't take that long.

Lian (23:35)

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Eddy Elsey (24:00)

You know, like I said, things have been, things were kind of put back in place within two years and that's remarkable, really.

Lian (24:00)

Hmm. Yeah.

Yeah,

it really is. So we've touched so far on, I guess, a few different forms of shamanism. During this conversation, we've mentioned traditional shamanism, core shamanism, neo-shamanism, and it feels as though, before we go further, it might be helpful just to make a few distinctions as to what is meant by them. I mean, certainly with say Neo and Core, they can be kind of lumped together and sometimes are called Core as a group. And so I'd love to start with you, Isaac. Obviously your sole experience has been with traditional, but I would just love your sense as to kind of what's meant by those different forms.

Isaac Wortley (24:57)

⁓ So traditional shamanism is any shamanism from a culture that's practiced shamanism for thousands of years unbroken. When it comes to core and neo-shamanism, core shamanism specifically is associated with Michael Hanna and neo-shamanism is anything that kind of branches out after that it seems. Obviously I've got no personal experience learning from core or neo-shamanism and I've only ever trained with ⁓ my teacher.

When it comes to, I would say the big differences is also the… core shamanism from my understanding, at least they tried to strip out lot of the cultural elements. I'm not personally 100 % on that, maybe Eddy could shed some light, because obviously Eddy has more experience with both core and neo-shamanism.

Eddy Elsey (25:58)

Yeah. mean, I, again, you know, core shamanism and neoshamanism, different things. Like Isaac said, core shamanism is associated with Michael Hanna and that I have never experienced that. You know, and when I've spoken about this in the past, people are thankful that I'd make that distinction because when I detail, you know, the way that my training went, they say it's very different. you know, there seems to be a lot of differences within core shamanism.

Lian (26:28)

Hmm.

Eddy Elsey (26:28)

I believe that the ⁓ FSS have a certain way of doing things and, you know, could potentially even be called very, very early stages of a lineage. I think they've been going since the eighties and they have, their own formula and their own way that things work, but I haven't experienced it. So I can't talk to that neo-shamanism, you know, is inspired, I think, by that.

Lian (26:42)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Eddy Elsey (26:57)

And I would call neo-shamanism anything that has a focus on shamanic journeying. What is known in neo-shamanic circles as soul retrieval, ancestral healing, these are generally the kind of things that you would learn. And these practices are inspired by practices that are from traditional cultures. Like Isaac said, they lack the traditional context and they perhaps can be effective.

you know, for some people in some ways can have some benefits. But they're certainly not the same as, as they are in lineage based spirituality, but they, you know, it's not really a comparison. Like Isaac said, traditional spirituality has been practiced for thousands of years. Quora neo-shamanism has been practiced since the 80s. It was actually unfair to compare them. I don't necessarily think that should be done. I think what is beneficial and would have been very beneficial for me in my early twenties, is if there was more education around the differences and also the limitations of neo-shamanism. Had I known that, I think I would have made a more informed decision.

Lian (28:02)

Mmm.

Hmm. Well, I think what you're saying there, I mean, in some ways, talking about the differences is making a comparison. And I know that's not your intention, but I also agree. You know, there is, I think, you know, again, coming from a similar path to you where it wasn't core, it was Neo. I don't think it's like you, I don't know if others in similar kinds of teachings would share this same experience I'm about to name, but it's like I was very aware that there were traditional lineages. But I suppose there isn't necessarily the awareness that there is a real need, if one is going to practice, to learn in that kind of lineage. But it's also, you don't necessarily know there's an availability to do that. is not something that's ⁓ obviously available as a path. And so I think these kind of conversations are helpful. It's not for everyone, but I do think there is something in being able to have these kinds of conversations that allows that to be a choice that someone could make.

Isaac Wortley (29:28)

So one thing I would like to add here is when it comes to obviously the traditional shamanism versus core shamanism or versus neo-shamanism argument that you hear a lot of the time, as Eddy said, it's really unfair to compare the two because neo-shamanism and core shamanism are new practices. They don't have the trial and error of thousands of generations and years.

Lian (29:57)

Mm.

Isaac Wortley (29:57)

to

show what say like the safety mechanisms obviously it works perfectly fine for some people and other people fall through the loopholes. think it's potentially more ⁓ more FSS have their own kind of formula whereas when it comes to neo-shamanism I'm not sure about that formula from what I've heard it seems to vary very drastically across the board.

But a lot of the practices obviously are from, based upon traditional cultures, but they're more animistic in nature. And animism is like the foundation and the core of shamanism, but shamanism has evolved to a scientific level. There's many different aspects of science to it, including a traditional medical system, which seems to be lacking.

Lian (30:33)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Isaac Wortley (30:54)

in these newer practices that are forming in the West. So you're only getting almost, as Eddy said, like one piece of the puzzle.

Lian (31:01)

Hmm. Yeah. I mean, certainly, I think what you've named, there was a couple of things actually that similar things were crossing my mind at the same time. ⁓ just speaking personally that having even, it's not the nicest word, but like a sort of framework for an animistic practice, I think can be really beneficial. It's, know, how humans lived and saw the world and move through the world for most of human history. So I think. there is a huge benefit that can come from that kind of reclaiming that animistic worldview and way of living. Certainly that's something I know I've benefited from hugely. And I also know just from my, ⁓ you know, much more recent experience of a traditional lineage compared to you two, there is this kind of scientific, like a true science. ⁓

aspect and again, it's not like I've I'm familiar with lots of different traditional lineages but certainly as far as the Mongolian ⁓ tradition, it is so complex. It is based on, you know, principles and laws and things that, you know, I just feel like I'm scratching the surface of and I'm already like, whoa, there is so much here.

And so I'd love to pick up that thread of like, what are we actually talking about? I don't necessarily mean to go into the details, but I think that's the bit I had no idea of. And, know, we're talking about the fact that, you know, these things are so different. I had no idea the level of complexity.

Isaac Wortley (32:38)

So it's.

Lian (32:44)

that would be involved in a traditional lineage. It has blown my mind. In fact, I'm going to speak to you, first, because, you've not known anything different. Eddy, what was your sense of that? You know, like, did you find it as mind-blowing as I did?

Eddy Elsey (32:59)

I found it very overwhelming actually. True shamanism or traditional shamanism is the science of the universe. Now it's been developed in Mongolia, which is the tradition we've been trained into a profound level and it's incredibly complex and it allows those who practice to… restore balance in their environment and cope with and cooperate with the world around them, which is a very, ⁓ a very complex, very difficult thing to learn. It's not something that can be learned in three days or, you know, three years. It's a lifelong practice. And it also, like Isaac touched upon, involves, ⁓ a good understanding in not just ritual practice, but an understanding in astrology, in medicine.

⁓ also a good understanding of psychology and to understand how to work with people and to be a leader and to be able to be of service to your community and a deep understanding of your own mind, which is incredibly complex as well. So if you put these things together, you can see how it has taken thousands of years to develop and also how it

Lian (34:09)

Mmm.

Eddy Elsey (34:21)

would be impossible for a practice that developed out of the 80s, even if it has been inspired by traditional practice, to have the same complexity. And if it doesn't have the same complexity, then it cannot be as effective. ⁓ with ⁓ neo-shamanism, I think that people focus on the sort of visionary states and journeying and finding messages and There isn't enough emphasis on the mind. There isn't enough emphasis on the way that the world actually works. And it's because of that, that there can be some loopholes and gaps, which is where people end up tripping themselves up, which is where I ended up tripping myself up. And I didn't see that it was my practice that, you know, was doing that. That's how blind I was personally. So when I went to Mongolia thinking, ⁓ yeah, you know, I'm I know my stuff. I really, I didn't know anything.

Lian (35:28)

Yeah. And Isaac, from a kind of more of an insider's perspective, how would you talk about this ⁓ sense of there is like, there is sort of scientific laws that underpin Mongolian, again, I don't think we can perhaps broaden it out to kind of traditional shamanism as a whole. Let's, guess, stay focused on what we do know. When it comes to Mongolian shamanism, Why would, why do you call this scientific?

Isaac Wortley (36:02)

So I may broaden it out little as well. ⁓ I have encountered Nepalese shamans and Korean shamans and they all have this same underpinning philosophy of how the world works. It's literally the science of the universe and how it functions, universal law. So a lot of people would ask, why are you engaging in a practice that's not from your region or not from your culture? Which I think...

Lian (36:12)

Mm.

Isaac Wortley (36:29)

A lot of people trying to reclaim their animistic heritage, they have a look at paganism or they have a look at these other practices. But the fact is, as Eddy mentioned, it's been developed to a profound level where they understand how the universe works. Whether you perform the ritual in Mongolia, whether you perform it in England, whether you perform it in the Americas, it will respond the same. It doesn't matter where you are. And it's the science of so many different factors, as I mentioned.

one of them is medicine. So it's understanding how the body works on a holistic level. So not just, so you know, someone might take a paracetamol when they've got headache, but if they keep getting reoccurring headaches, why are they getting the reoccurring headaches and can it be treated by other herbs? Or is there spiritual treatment that needs to be done? So it's not just looking at the body in one way, it's looking at the complete

Lian (37:20)

Mmm.

Isaac Wortley (37:26)

system of the body, the complete system of the universe, and the culture and the community. And the practice doesn't only affect the individual, it affects the community around them, bringing balance to the natural world, bringing balance in the community, and also to the family as well. There so many different aspects and there so many layers. And you mentioned about practice, not a lot of people don't realise these practices are now available

Lian (37:42)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Isaac Wortley (37:55)

for Westerners to learn or people in the West to learn. But over recent years, obviously there's mother tree shamanism and then there's Bola band starlet, which is Nepalese shamanism. They've began openly teaching because they want to share what they have to help the people that are struggling.

Lian (38:17)

You answered the question I was about to ask you, is why are these traditional teachers sharing? Because I think we can, and it often I guess is the case, there can be a kind of guarding of the knowledge and the lineage. And I'm guessing in certain cases that is the appropriate thing. ⁓and perhaps talk directly to mother tree shamanism, why, and perhaps if you just share a little bit more, why is this being shared more widely?

Isaac Wortley (38:53)

So basically it's been shared more widely because there has been so many people that have been struggling both physically, mentally, health-wise, spiritually and it's been seen by traditional shamans and they want to do their best to help and help the younger generation and guide them in the direct the correct way leading them to a path where they can safely practice and

not only bettering their own lives, but bettering their families, their relationships, their communities, and even the natural world around them, and understanding the underpinnings of the universe and the world around them, and also to be able to diagnose problems effectively. So not everyone's going to go away and become a shaman, but even if they practice as a shamanist and have someone that they can reach out or be pointed in the right direction, traditional to a traditional doctor, go to this person for this. Then at the very least then they will also have their own personal first aid that they can treat themselves and their loved ones with. And if it's a serious problem that they feel unable to cope with then they can go to the person that will help.

Lian (40:00)

Hmm.

Thank you. I'm very aware that there's so much that we could go deeper into and I feel like I'm kind of like skipping us along quite fast, but I do want to make sure there's certain things that we have had a chance to talk about. And one of the ones that again, for me has been quite striking is what's seen as that teacher-student relationship and its place in traditional shamanism, which in some ways is, you know, one of those things where you have the worldview you've been raised in or been taught in, so you think you know, and then you start to realise like, ⁓ I actually didn't know what was meant or why this was needed. And so this is something I think that ⁓

anyone that's called to shamanic practice would really benefit from hearing what's really meant and why it's important to have this teacher-student bond. I'm going to come to you first, Eddy, because of course you've, you like me, I've had a kind of a blend of experiences and then I'd certainly like to hear your sense too, Isaac.

Eddy Elsey (41:28)

I think in the West and speaking generally, I hope I don't offend anyone with this, that often we pay for a course and we have a relationship with our teacher through that transaction and we learn. And that's not to say that that relationship can't be close, but it's one or ⁓ there's a superficial nature to it. We're often not a huge part of that person's life and they're not a huge part of our life.

Lian (41:57)

Mm.

Eddy Elsey (41:58)

Whether that's for three days, three years, whether you become friendly with your teacher or not and see them outside of, you know, the sort of realm of your, your neoshamanic training, maybe, but there's a superficial nature to it. My experience with the student teacher bond in traditional culture and certainly with our teacher is that it's far, far deeper than that. It's family.

⁓ maybe perhaps deeper than family. It's something that is not just for one lifetime. It's for multiple lifetimes. And there's a deep care that's mutual. It's not just your teacher with you and looking after you, or it's not just a student looking after the teacher. There's a mutual, ⁓ care, ⁓ and, relationship that extends and you really deeply care about them, how they are, their future, their family.

And that goes on for life. And it's a very serious thing to have a traditional teacher and for a traditional teacher to take on a student. It's not something that's done lightly. And there's certainly a karmic bond. And ⁓ it honestly took me a while to get my head around it. You know, it really did. I came to this with a lot of blind spots around my own selfishness.

Lian (43:05)

Hmm.

Eddy Elsey (43:24)

⁓ and my own lack of willingness to really give myself up and sacrifice the practice. that has consistently been, ⁓ illuminated and. know, at the stage where I'm starting to understand that, you know, just what, is needed and why that is important. You know, it's important because you need a deeper transmission to really understand spirituality and that transmission. doesn't just happen through a screen if you're learning online or words and okay, do this ritual or learn this technique. It really comes through the care and affection and a real ⁓ bond of you and your teacher, soul to soul and mind to mind.

Lian (44:12)

Hmm. Yeah. And it's something that. so few of us have experienced, you know, to be honest, even if it's not even just, not just talking about shamanism, but kind of many forms of spirituality. I think we have this very kind of pick and mix approach to spirituality ⁓ in the West. And, you know, do just think we can kind of move from teacher to teacher, course to course, lineage to lineage. And we don't know any differently.

I think there is a kind of is a worldview is a whole such a shift. I feel like I'm only just sort of getting a glimpse of really what's being spoken about. But even what I've seen, I have got this real deep appreciation of like, wow, we're so missing that.

Isaac, I know that certainly what we're talking about, you've got ⁓ deep experience of and as Eddy was saying, know, more like family, I was smiling because I know you've shared stories with me of, like really what's meant by that and, you know,

Isaac Wortley (45:04)

So.

Lian (45:28)

the ways that can very much be like a kind of mother-son relationship, for example. But I'd love to hear your sense of this.

Isaac Wortley (45:37)

It really is like the true teacher-student bond really is like family. It's not just with spiritual practice. The teacher is also helping to guide the student in their life to make sure they have the best life possible, their family life, every aspect. They're trying to benefit them. In the West, obviously have a lot of, maybe not just in the West, I think people in modern day society, there's a sense of separation and disconnect from one another.

Lian (45:49)

Hmm.

Isaac Wortley (46:07)

When it comes to letting yourself be open with a teacher on that level, a lot of people are like, my gosh, they're going to take advantage of me and a lot of fear. And obviously there are people out there that... Okay, there is.

Lian (46:13)

Mmm.

There are unscrupulous teachers out there

too, yeah.

Isaac Wortley (46:21)

So it's up to the student and the teacher to accept the student because the student might be unscrupulous and then the student to accept the teacher. But once that's happened there has to be a traditionally there'd be a really close bond and in Asia once they make the mind to accept a teacher whether it's Buddhism, whether it's Shamanism, they know they're getting into a minimum of like well literally quite a few lifetimes.

Lian (46:33)

Hmm.

Isaac Wortley (46:50)

worth of steep teacher-student bond and the teachers thinking about the student's lifetime in this lifetime, the lifetime in the next, and also with their practice making sure they're safe. They care about the student as they care about their own child and family.

Lian (46:54)

Hmm.

Hmm. Yeah.

Isaac Wortley (47:08)

So it's obviously I think that is missing in the West. And as both of you were saying, there's a term I heard mentioned, spiritual materialism, where people are like, they move on from one thing to another, and they treat it like a commodity, but without everything to anything. And obviously not everyone in the West does that, but some people, I think it's probably the same anywhere.

Lian (47:19)

Hmm.

Yeah.

And innocently done, I think, you when we have a sense that we're lacking something, it's kind of an obvious, a bit like you were sharing with your story, Eddy, where you kind of, you know, yoga, then Reiki, then this, then that. It's coming from, you know, often good intentions, just wanting to feel better. And if we're not, if we don't know there is an alternative, we're just doing our best. So it's not even… certainly my intention isn't to kind of shame people, make that wrong. We're doing the best we can. And these are things we just don't know because we haven't seen modeled and haven't seen experienced, but I've certainly just in conversations with you, Isaac, when you shared, ⁓ that relationship and kind of the form it takes, I'm always so moved like, wow, you know, this, this really is a whole different dynamic. to what we think is meant by student teacher. really, you know, again, it amuses me sometimes, but it really is moving as well.

Isaac Wortley (48:46)

Yeah, and the spiritual materialism is not, me mentioning that term, is not to shame anyone for doing it. Because a lot of people will be hunting for something to make them feel complete or whole or to make them feel better if they're struggling. And if it doesn't serve them, then of course they'll look elsewhere.

Lian (48:50)

Hmm.

Isaac Wortley (49:02)

With the teacher-student bond as well, literally... Yeah, I don't think we even have the concept for it in the West because, as I mentioned, people are becoming more distant even from their own families. So obviously, shamanism is an ancestral practice of honoring your ancestors. But most people...

Lian (49:24)

Hmm. ⁓

Isaac Wortley (49:29)

not most people, but a lot of people don't even honour their own parents. So how can they hope to practice something of honouring ancestors? Your parents are your ancestors, you can't even honour the living ones, how can you honour the ones that passed away?

Lian (49:33)

Yeah.

Mm.

Yeah, for sure. I'm really aware that there's just, you know, we really have just scratched the surface and we're almost up on time. We may well need to come back and do a part two if you two are up for it. But one thing I'd love to make sure we've at least touched on before we close is one of the things that really struck me having had some experience now of a Mongolian traditional path is this how can I how can I name this looking rather than being just focused on say shamanic practice and learning shamanic rituals, a much deeper understanding of kind of the person themselves and their understanding of their own mind. And having I feel often quite fortunate because my before I got involved in shamanism, I've been on a kind of spiritual path much longer than that. mind's not Buddhism, it's the Kabbalah, primarily. but so many of the same kinds of concepts and same understanding of the mind ⁓ is something I've been used to for so many years, which I think equipped me to ⁓ deal with that not being included in, say, Neo-Shamanism much better. ⁓

It's like I came from a place that was already quite balanced and having done a lot of that kind of work already, you know, whether it's meditation, all these things where I feel as though they are kind of essential for anyone that's then acting as practitioner helping other people. However, that's just not something that's understood and practiced very much, from my understanding at least, in say, neo-shamanism. And so, when I began with Mongolian shamanism, I was like, wow, this is interesting. It's not just included. It's prioritized. It's essential. And so I had a real appreciation for that. It surprised me, but I had such a deep appreciation for that. So ⁓ coming to you first, Eddy, what's your, what's been your experience of that? Because again, I think this is something that isn't isn't known and isn't spoken about much outside of these places where it's kind of again intrinsically baked into it.

Eddy Elsey (52:25)

I didn't think that any, I didn't think Shamanism included many training of the mind before I went to Mongolia. And it was ⁓ a big shock to me. I didn't learn previously any mind ⁓ control practices or any practices that helped me really understand the mind on a deep level.

shamanism has an understanding of the mind to a very, very scientific level. It's not just, you know, kind of superficial, it breaks down the science of the mind, where the mind exists, how to work with the mind and everything to do with it. We won't get into here, but if you don't have an understanding of your true self, how do you hope to either help people or work with other forces?

You know, everyone knows within shamanism, there's the ritual element and there's an aspect of working with ancestors or spirits. It's, it's just impossible to do so without a foundation of understanding in your own mind and to understand who you are. And again, I think that's where I tripped myself up so much with neo-shamanism was because I had absolutely no control of my mind. You know, completely, you know,

Lian (53:44)

Hmm.

which

is average people isn't it? like it's that's the norm for most people shamans or not

Eddy Elsey (53:52)

Yes, because the mind has to be trained. You know, the mind is unruly and we lack a real understanding of it. And I'm not just talking about in spiritual ⁓ communities in the West. I think the West in general has a real lack of understanding of the mind. And I think that's also why we see so much unhappiness, uneasiness, loneliness, suffering, mental health issues, which is a real epidemic. You know, practices like Mongolian shamanism, like Buddhism

Lian (53:55)

Mm.

Mm.

Yes.

Hmm.

Eddy Elsey (54:21)

have developed, like I said, an understanding of the mind to a profound level. And this is another reason why it's so important that people, ⁓ if they're interested, start understanding these practices and start learning from these authentic sources, because there's a lot that can be avoided, a lot of suffering that can be understood and avoided. And I think that's very important for people to understand in the West.

Lian (54:51)

Hmm, yeah. Isaac, anything you'd like to add on that before we close?

Isaac Wortley (54:58)

So when it comes to understanding the mind, I would say it's such a major aspect as both of you have mentioned in traditional shamanism. When I was first out of learning, ⁓ my teacher said this to me, she said it doesn't take one ritual to make a shaman, but it does take one ritual to make a polluted one. Because if you don't know your own nature, and don't know your own mind, how can you differentiate between your own mental projections and what the spirits are telling you? How can you differentiate between the two? So when it comes to, at least from my understanding from speaking to others, a lot of these practices that are growing in the West, they don't have this concept of the mind being such an important factor. Whereas in traditional shamanism, Mongolian shamanism,

Lian (55:31)

Mmm.

Isaac Wortley (55:53)

learn about the mind, they learn how to control it, they learn its very nature, the processes it goes through. They have to learn every single aspect of that to be a good practitioner. As I mentioned earlier, the most balanced, stable individuals are the shamans themselves as well.

Lian (56:04)

Mm.

Isaac Wortley (56:15)

They have to train their mind to a point of being balanced. think there's this concept, at least that I've seen around online of, I've got mental illness and that means that I am a healer or a shaman. But if you ever meet any traditional shaman in any culture, at least the ones that I've encountered, they're all very stable, very down-to-earth people and very logical.

Lian (56:15)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Yeah, it really is. I feel like this could be a whole episode in itself, this conversation. And again, maybe we'd come back and go deeper into this. But there's one thing that I think would be so helpful to be understood when people are, to be honest, this probably goes out more broadly to other spiritual practices too, is what we're talking about here. I mean, what you just said there, Reddy, about how are you gonna know the difference between projections of the mind and things that are being said by the spirits? It's like, well, how would you if you don't understand your own mind? But it's just not even knowing that as a distinction, I think gets us into all kinds of hot water. So yeah, I do feel like this is, again, such an important thing. I just wanted to make sure we're covered before we closed. Any final? words that you'd like to add Eddy before we close.

Eddy Elsey (57:45)

I I'd just like to reiterate that I really hope ⁓ I haven't come across as someone who's attacking core shamanism or neo-shamanism or other Western practices. I am simply just trying to share my personal experience and that, you know, if anyone is going through a similar experience or they've had similar questions, you know, offer them an alternative ⁓ route or path into practicing.

shamanism, you know, I do apologise if I offended anyone, but I do think these things are very important to talk about. I think there are lots of people who have had similar experiences to mine. And just that my door is always open if people want to message or talk or give any feedback.

Lian (58:39)

Thank you and I really appreciate your humility and ⁓ sensitivity throughout this. Isaac, anything you would like to say before we close?

Isaac Wortley (58:55)

I would like to obviously echo what Eddy said with that. Hopefully I haven't got cause-defense to anyone. Obviously I'm only speaking from my, the things that I've experienced and also talking to others that have experienced these things as well. I have no personal training in core or neo-shamanism. So my only encountering has come from people that have practiced it themselves.

Lian (59:10)

Mm.

Hmm. And anything else? You can't just echo Eddy's thoughts. I'd like to hear something else too.

Isaac Wortley (59:27)

You

Eddy Elsey (59:30)

I think actually, if I may just jump in and just say something we haven't covered, don't think is, although ⁓ Isaac and I have a traditional Mongolian teacher, we are not obviously traditional Mongolian shamans and we never will be. I know Isaac mentioned that because, you know, these traditional practices, they have a deep understanding of universal law, they can be applied anywhere. That is our teachers and our hope that we are you know, become practitioners for our own countries and our own communities. And these incredible methods that our teacher and others have been so generous to share with the West can be applied here and grounded here. So if anyone's listening to this and thinking, well, I'm really interested in shamanism, but my ancestry is nothing to do with Mongolia. You know, we totally understand that. And, you know, we hope that it doesn't come across like we are. know, that this isn't something that can be applied anywhere and can be incredibly grounded in this land because Isaac has been practicing very successfully for six years. And I've started recently to practice as well. And these methods work wherever you are and they can be applied.

Lian (1:00:47)

Yeah, great, great addition. Thank you, Eddy. Isaac.

Isaac Wortley (1:00:52)

I would say they truly can be practiced anywhere. I've been helping people for six years, I've been learning for ten, and the natural world, the spirits, they respond exactly the same wherever you are. And we're not Mongolian shamans, because we never will be, because we're not Mongolian. We're English shamans, but we just have been trained within this lineage, and we've been trained how to help our own communities. and the people around us. but there are now teachers available in the West for Western practitioners if they want to learn about this and learn about these universal laws, learn about the sciences, such as military shamanism and Bola. These are two of those. I think I believe they are the only two that are teaching publicly.

Lian (1:01:38)

Mm.

Wonderful. coming to that, where can listeners find out more about you both and your work and Mother Tree Shamanism?

Eddy Elsey (1:01:54)

I'll let you go first, think.

Isaac Wortley (1:01:56)

Okay, so you can find Mother Tree Shamanism on Facebook ⁓ or Instagram and there's also an email that you can email at mothertreeshamanism.gmail.com

Lian (1:02:11)

Wonderful and ⁓ Eddy I think you've got your own website would you like to share that as well?

Eddy Elsey (1:02:17)

Yep, my website is streetspirituality.com and if you want to have a chat on Instagram it's at Eddy Elsey

Lian (1:02:26)

Wonderful. Thank you so much, both of you. In the time that we have, I feel like we've gone to some really interesting places and thank you so much for sharing your stories as well. I really appreciate you both.

Eddy Elsey (1:02:38)

No problem.

Thanks so much for having us. Hopefully we can do it again sometime.

Lian (1:02:41)

Yes, I would love to. Thank you.

Lian (1:02:43)

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