The hidden power in mythic stories of desire and love (transcript)

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Episode Transcript:

Lian (00:00)

Could the love stories that move us actually be maps that can lead us home to the sacred? Hello my beautiful souls and a huge warm welcome back. In this week's episode, I'm joined once again by mythologist, wilderness guide and cultural craft woman Stephanie McKay, whose life's work is devoted to remembering how to belong, to land, to lineage, to story and to each other.

In this conversation, Stephanie and I explore how old stories caught the soul. We speak of Angela Carter's Red Riding Hood and the shock of feeling Eros as a living thread, of Skeleton Woman and the fisherman's skin against skin and what these unions in myth are really calling us towards.

Together we trace how desire becomes devotion, noticing where longing truly points, allowing projection to soften so love becomes more human and more sacred.

So listen if you're moved by myths of great love or sense that what you hunger for is older and deeper than mere romance.

And before we jump into all of that good stuff, first it's time for your weekly omen from the algorithmic oracles, Eros Shrugs.

Forget subscribe and your notifications flirt with everything except meaning. Subscribe and each week something worth falling for actually arrives. Don't play hard to get. And if you're struggling with the challenges of walking your soul path in this crazy modern world and would benefit from guidance, kinship and support, come join Unio, the community for wild sovereign souls.

Unio is the living home for the wild sovereign soul path where together we reclaim our wildness, actualise our sovereignty and awaken our souls. We meet twice each month in our community guidance circle where Jonathan and I meet you exactly where you are and with whatever challenges you're experiencing in life. And that really could be on any part of life you can think of. It could be sexuality, money, business, parenting, you name it.

And that's in essence, in order to guide you to meet the material for liberation that your soul is calling you to, so that you may become truly free, living the life your heart longs for. You can discover more and walk with us by hopping over to BeMythical.com/unio or click the link in the description. And now back to this week's episode. Let's dive in.

Lian (02:38)

Hello Stephanie, welcome back.

Stephanie MacKay (02:40)

Hello, Lian, it's so good to be back. Wonderful to see you again.

Lian (02:43)

Oh, it really is a pleasure and we both lit up as soon as we hit on this topic and I was like, oh my goodness, we are going to have so much fun with this.

Stephanie MacKay (02:59)

Absolutely.

Lian (03:01)

So, beginning where the thread of this episode began, which was me pondering what really stood out to me, which there are many things that stood out to me, but there was one thing that kind of really hooked me back in, and it was when you mentioned the profound effect of Angela Carter's version of Red Riding Hood.

And how, and this is my recollection of what you said then, which is lovely, isn't it? How stories ends up like changing so many times in the retelling. But my recollection is it had this kind of profound, almost like this fork in the road of your life path where you just went in a completely different direction because of how it spoke to you and what it showed you. And that...

was pulling me back and I was like, yeah, we didn't really get the chance to explore that as much as I felt I wanted to at the time because we had so many other things we wanted to. And I know that we're going to explore more deeply this, this notion of stories romancing the soul. But before that, I would love to go back to what you shared about the impact of that story and what, what it, what it told you, what it told you about you.

Stephanie MacKay (04:18)

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. ⁓ So I was in university and I was doing a degree in literature and I was given this collection of stories that were retold by Angela Carter. And one of them was the story of Little Red Riding Hood. And I think reflecting back on it, what was actually so powerful in her retelling was that I think Angela Carter had a deeper understanding of the story and was able to retell it in a way that lifted up that deeper understanding and brought to surface ⁓ her deeper understanding of the story rather than just a of rote retelling or, know, copying of the story as it's sort of known publicly. And... ⁓

Lian (04:55)

Mm.

Stephanie MacKay (05:13)

And what she lifted up in that story was this erotic link, essentially between the soul and the wild. And that gripped me and touched me so deeply at that time in my life and has continued to be a deep thread for me throughout my life. ⁓ This incredibly beautiful and mysterious and wildly deep ⁓ connection between the life force.

of the land which is carried within the stories and that life force showing up as Eros. And it really pierced my heart and sent me on, or it helped me see that there was something very deep and mysterious in these stories that typically had been presented to me as, well, this is just a childhood story and it's got a moral about behaving a certain way and this is how you should be and you know, don't violate these certain rules and that which you know, it has its place but it doesn't so much have a place in the mysteries of souls. So ⁓ she lifted up the mystery of soul in that and ⁓ the Eros and that's what really landed for me.

Lian (06:16)

Mm-mm.

Mm. Gosh. I feel like we could actually just spend the whole episode talking about that story. But I do want to make sure we go into other ways this has shown up. ⁓ What's fascinating to me is what you were saying there, the way that her understanding of what lay at the heart of the story allowed her to...

Stephanie MacKay (06:41)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Lian (07:05)

create this retelling that was actually radically different. It had a radically different message to the one that, know, the literary writing was basically like behave this way or else. And she's like, behave and look what you'll lose. Look what you'll never get the chance to live. It has such a, such a different message. ⁓ Yeah, I find that so beautiful. So what really spoke to me and what you just shared was

Stephanie MacKay (07:10)

Mm-hmm.

exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Lian (07:32)

The way you said, actually, for people that aren't watching, listening, you really had your hands on your heart and you're like, pierced your heart. It really entered you deeply. And it was me remembering the way that you spoke back on our previous episode that I was really moved by, and I think that was what was tugging on me. And then broadening this out to...

Stephanie MacKay (07:45)

Mm-hmm.

Lian (08:00)

all of these many, many, many folk tales, fairy tales, myths, that have somewhere within them some kind of union, this sort of sexual romantic union, which as we were saying before we started recording, of course has been literalised and Disney-fied and made to mean something quite different to what at least is possible to see. It's not to say, you one's untrue and the other one's true. I think these are all themes that are of able to live sort of together and are showing us different things. But largely speaking, this notion of the union between the land and the soul is largely forgotten in our culture. there's, it's something...

But the two are so intrinsically linked. This is the heart of what I'm wanting us to explore. The way that if that union had been spoken about in a very different way, I don't think it would speak to us quite so potently.

Stephanie MacKay (09:08)

Mm.

Lian (09:08)

which I mean, say for example, and of course there are stories that do just this. Say the example had been ⁓ Little Red Riding Hood at some point, smells a rose and she's in such rapture with the smell of this rose and whilst there is you know that may move some people at some point it probably isn't going to move people in the same way as the Eros in that story did for you or indeed as I was sharing with you stories like Skeleton Woman have for me.

I was just thinking have I got the the version handy and I just looked and I was there. So I just want to read the passage that I can hopefully open quite quickly on the right page because I've read it a number of times in circle. Yes, here we go. Perfect. ⁓

Stephanie MacKay (09:51)

Yeah.

Lian (10:05)

There's a just this last couple of paragraphs. so skeleton woman and the fisherman man who has kind of like pulled her out of this place that she's been resting at the bottom of the ocean. And there's this whole kind of thing where he thinks she's trying to kill him and she's all tangled up. And it you know, it's created further division and fear between them. And then At the end, ⁓ he falls asleep and she takes his heart out of his chest, the mighty drum, and she uses it to bang for flesh on her bones and eyes and hair and all of these things. And so she's being made whole. And when she was done, she also sang the sleeping man's clothes off and crept into his bed with him, skin against skin. She returned the great drum, his heart to his body.

And that is how they awakened, wrapped one around the other, tangled from their night together in another way now, a good and lasting way. The people who cannot remember how she came to her first ill fortune say she and the fishermen went away and consistently well-fed by the creatures she'd known in her life underwater. The people say that is true and that is all they know.

they all lived happily ever after, of course. But that scene of creeping into his bed and skin against skin and that language, tangled from their night together in another way now, a good and lasting way, there's something about that that just takes my breath away. And it's not an

Stephanie MacKay (11:48)

Mm-hmm.

Lian (11:53)

It's no coincidence, it's not a mistake that the union is shown in that way that like speaks to us so viscerally.

Stephanie MacKay (12:00)

Absolutely. ⁓

Lian (12:03)

So yeah, let's go here.

Stephanie MacKay (12:09)

Yeah, I mean, even just listening to you read that, it's like I almost have tears in my eyes at how beautiful it is. And I think what it touches likely in both you and me and all the rest of us who are moved by these moments in story ⁓ is that it actually touches a very ancient part

Lian (12:18)

Hmm.

Stephanie MacKay (12:36)

in us. It touches that ancestral memory that we have of the time when as youth or adolescents, we would go through an initiation that carried our desire into that union with the holy or with the land or with the wild, however you understand it. And then that very ancient union which again is still happening in a very different way. It's still alive. ⁓ We have a deep longing for it. It is a natural unfolding of the human soul to come into that lovemaking with the holy, that union with the wild ⁓ that does have an everlasting imprint on us as we move through the rest of our lives.

So I think stories will forever, stories that hold this piece as very central will forever capture us and we will forever long for them because it ⁓ is what the soul is always moving towards, is this union.

Lian (13:52)

Mmm, aching for. Mmm, yeah. And...

Stephanie MacKay (13:55)

Yeah, absolutely.

Lian (14:04)

we don't know how well I can name this succinctly, but we were exploring before we began recording this, this way in which we can either completely literalize the lovemaking at the heart of these stories, or we can say it's actually got nothing to do with love between two humans. And it's all about the union either between you could be the two, you know, masculine, feminine within or between the soul and the land and How can I put this? There's a way in which I see that, say for example, going back to the fisherman and skeleton woman, allowing them to also be a man and a woman is kind of what allows that kind of the the eros between them to stay alive. Whilst we're also looking at kind of a where else is this being activated within me?

Stephanie MacKay (15:01)

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Lian (15:07)

Does that make sense how I said that? was quite a clunky thing to put words around. Or I'm putting clunky words around something that's beautiful.

Stephanie MacKay (15:12)

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, I think what I'm hearing is that ⁓ there is a place for both the human and the holy, ⁓ or the human and the sacred, and that they're essentially not separate, and that they are also separate. And so holding that paradox of ⁓ that, yes, we long for this and we look for long for ache for this sacred love with another human. And that that is, as you say, part of why these stories have such a hold on us is because we can relate. The stories are put into human form, and then we can relate from this, you know, human body or this this human heart. And and I think that that human longing is also informed by the soul's longing and so that there is a relationship between the two and a dance between the two.

Lian (16:15)

Hmm

Mm.

Stephanie MacKay (16:22)

Mm-hmm.

Lian (16:24)

Yeah. So.

knowing that these stories are providing an invitation into, I guess, a different kind of romance, or a deeper romance, or a romance between aspects of ourselves and something else that aren't, again, literal, literally kind of seen in the story.

I'm wanting to ask the question that isn't going to take us into, what I'm wanting to do is not have the same conversation we had last time, because I want to keep it through the lens of this particular current.

Stephanie MacKay (17:12)

I could say just a little bit more about skeleton woman if you want. There's, yeah, and

Lian (17:14)

Hmm. Hmm. Yes, please. It's interesting just to say that she's from the sea, isn't she? Often we say, ⁓ I was noticing as I was reading, it's like we talk about the land and I often think of forests and earth and it's interesting she's from the sea also. ⁓ But carry on, please.

Stephanie MacKay (17:30)

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly.

And so I think one of the mythic layers of that would be that that's actually the marriage between the land and the sea. And that the land and the sea coming together mythologically and actually scientifically is that's what gives life. That's where all life comes from is the marriage of the land and the sea. ⁓ So that, you know, there's so many layers of these stories, but that's one of them. But I think

Lian (17:40)

Mmm.

Mm.

Beautiful, yeah.

Stephanie MacKay (17:58)

you know, holding just that piece of the story that you read out, there's this very distinct moment where it does cross over into the human world, where, you know, she's a, from my understanding, she's a holy being from the waters that, you know, he has dragged essentially inadvertently initially and ⁓ into his home, but that there is some, welcoming of the Holy in skeleton form in the home and then through this relationship that they have and then her, you know, receiving of his heart and using it as a drum to remember herself. So this is essentially the remembering of the Holy through this, this union of the two of them. And at that point, as she is remembered, then she takes on a form in which Eros can be exchanged between the two of them. And then that Eros, as I've said, holding Eros and Lifeforce as essentially the same thing. ⁓ But as that Eros and Lifeforce is exchanged between them, that is a feeding of life beyond the two of them. And then she's able to at

Lian (19:03)

Hmm.

Stephanie MacKay (19:27)

after that moment. I mean, in the story, it's just such a small moment. But if we expand it out, and we actually live it as an expanded moment in our lives. So there's there's the union of the two of them when they're still in this ⁓ sacred and human form, but that she's been remembered enough that they can come where they can actually touch. And I think that's such a beautiful, beautiful

Lian (19:52)

Mmm.

Stephanie MacKay (19:55)

moment of like now we can actually touch because the sacred is so ephemeral and when there's that moment to actually have physical union or contact with the sacred it's ecstatic it's it's exquisite it's sublime it's um incredibly powerful and that sends out an echo of life then she is able to

Lian (20:21)

Mmm. ⁓

Stephanie MacKay (20:24)

you know, then she shifts into human form and they live forever on as in union. And because they've been in this sacred ecstatic union with each other, their and life has been fed beyond themselves. That's why they then receive from the land so abundantly from that point on.

Lian (20:51)

Hmm. Yes. ⁓ beautiful. Yes. I mean, as you say, there is so much just in that single, well, two paragraphs, I think it is so much. The other thing that was going back to Skeleton Woman and. ⁓

Stephanie MacKay (20:54)

one way of understanding it.

Lian (21:10)

What was really standing out to me ⁓ as you were talking was her hunger. I didn't read that section, but I'm going to read it because it also reminded me of what you talked about in our first episode when… there was a kind of your life before Red Riding Hood where you were if I remember like working really hard and kind of going down a path that our culture had said you know this is this is the way to do life and perhaps the hunger that you weren't even aware that you had for something more and I just recalled again I didn't read this part but I recalled it is in the story

Stephanie MacKay (21:40)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Lian (21:56)

where it describes this hunger for union before there's the awareness of it. So where's this? Here we this is when the fisherman is pulling her out ⁓ of the water.

Over the rocks he ran and she followed over the frozen tundra he ran and she kept right up. Over the meat laid out to dry he ran cracking it to pieces as his mucklucks bore down. Throughout it all she kept right up. In fact grabbed some of the frozen fish as she was dragged behind. This she began to eat for she has not gorged in a long long time. And so she is as she's being pulled in this know, terrifying way into this new life. She is grabbing and gobbling up this fish as she goes, because she hasn't eaten for a very long time. And ⁓ as you were talking, there's this like, as you say, if it's just real consummation and union, but before this, was a hunger.

Stephanie MacKay (22:55)

Mm-hmm.

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, it's, it's so beautiful. And we have, there's this hunger. And then another way we could phrase it is that there's desire, that there is, there is some desire that pulls us. And I, you know, the understanding that I hold is that this desire is by design. Yeah.

Lian (23:20)

Mmm.

Yes.

Stephanie MacKay (23:33)

And this is where the romancing of the soul comes in, is that there is essentially a call from the other side. And there is an innate desire in us that surfaces at a certain age. And this is the point, or a certain age or a certain stage in life. And that's the desire that essentially leads us, or hunger that leads us into this encounter with deep encounter with soul, with, ⁓ you know, with the wild, with the holy, however we understand it, but that the desire or the hunger is an important part. And there's also, you know, the other side that there's this hunger because of a longing to be fed and the fact that she, you know, is running and picking up the fish and feeding herself because she hasn't been fed in so long. And we see this in other stories as well, where, you know, ⁓ a young person will pass by, you know, an old woman or an old man, and they ask, do you have any spare food? you know, they say, haven't eaten in 100 years. And so that's a that's a very key part of the relationship between the human and the sacred where our

Lian (24:50)

Hmm.

Stephanie MacKay (25:00)

Part of our role is to feed the other world and we feed one through our remembering of them, through offerings, through ceremony, through ritual, ⁓ and through this union. The union is a major part of the feeding of the other world so that life can go on. So the hunger and desire is absolutely by design.

Lian (25:09)

Mmm.

Yes, I love that. Yeah.

Stephanie MacKay (25:30)

It draws us in. Yeah.

Lian (25:36)

The, what's occurring to me is, and again, going back to your story of the before and after, you met the wolf, ⁓ is because we have culturally, to a large extent, lost, the whole map has become invisible. The fact that what we're talking about is a possibility.

Stephanie MacKay (26:01)

Mm-hmm.

Lian (26:06)

it's sometimes ⁓ hard to recognize the hunger, the desire for what it is and what it is that we desire, what it is that we're lacking, what we haven't had a chance to gorge on for a very long time. I'd love your senses to, how you've seen that show up for people and in some ways you're like, well, you know, the sacred will take care of its, you know,

Stephanie MacKay (26:15)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Lian (26:35)

Ultimately, one way or another, we will be, you know, given that call, we'll be given hooked in some way. And so it's not necessarily saying like, this is a big problem, somehow we need to go and tell everyone, you know, this is the hunger. But I'd love you to speak a little bit more about this, because I also have this sense that these things happen in cycles where we can have those big shifts, like you had, and I've had things. And then we sometimes go and recognise

Stephanie MacKay (26:35)

you

Lian (27:04)

There is that desire for more, a hunger for more. And at this point, we have more of a sense as to what it is. But I'd love you to talk a bit about what you've seen in yourself and others, those different ways that that desire can show up and the ways we can kind of know what it is that we've been called towards.

Stephanie MacKay (27:24)

Mm hmm. Yeah, great question. And I think there's, there's quite a bit of teasing out to understand that and certainly in an individual life, having that fine discernment of what am I actually hungry for? And, you know,

Lian (27:45)

Mmm.

Stephanie MacKay (27:48)

I guide wilderness quests and people out on the land, they're fasting for four days and they're solo for three days. And one of the main questions that we offer them is when you feel hungry, ask yourself, what am I truly hungry for? What am I truly longing for? What am I truly desiring? Because essentially this desire or the longing, ⁓ the hunger can get

Lian (28:05)

Mmm.

Stephanie MacKay (28:18)

without the cultural container to direct the arrows towards the sacred, what can happen is that it gets sidetracked and gets ⁓ planted on ⁓ different forms of consumption or different forms of ⁓ fleeing, of numbing. ⁓ So we can, absolutely projected on another human being. So when we're deeply longing for the sacred, but we don't have anybody to direct us towards the sacred, what we tend to do is look for the sacred in another human being. And we meet this other human being and they're glowing and radiant and beautiful. And we see the sacred in them, but it's a projection. Of course, we all have the divine within us.

Lian (28:48)

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Stephanie MacKay (29:15)

And this is something slightly different, where no other human being can hold that role of the sacred for us. And so that's one of the main places where it gets directed. Yeah.

Lian (29:29)

Mm, it really is.

Yeah, this is exactly where I feel we need to go now because it's a kind of unpopular thing, isn't it? You know, no one wants to hear that this great romance, this fantasy, this idea of, know, I've met the one, this, you know, he's my soulmate. No one wants to hear that we are projecting the sacred onto them.

Stephanie MacKay (29:42)

Mm-hmm.

Lian (29:58)

And again, it's not to say there's nothing else going on, but I think this is one of those things that is really, really hard for us to receive. It's a very unpopular truth.

Stephanie MacKay (30:14)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And as you say, it's not to say that there's not profound love between human beings. There is profoundly beautiful love between human beings. And ⁓ there's actually a great poem, which I'm not going to be able to recite, but that essentially the idea is, does the earth want nothing more than to throw lovers into each other's arms so that we can feel her embrace through each other? So there's this...

Lian (30:22)

Mmm.

Hmm.

Stephanie MacKay (30:43)

Absolutely there's a beautiful place where we can share the sacred with each other, with our human loves. And there is, as I say, ⁓ a union, a sacred union that another human being cannot possibly hold. And it's not fair to ask them to hold that. So I think, you know, I'll just pick up also what you said about the sacred will take care of it. Like it's okay.

Lian (31:03)

Mmm.

Stephanie MacKay (31:13)

they'll take care of it. There will be a point so often in a relationship, what I would say is don't worry too much about figuring out, am I projecting the sacred on this person or not? Allow yourself to fall completely in love, go for love. It's at the point where you start feeling something pulling you beyond your partnership.

There is a very distinct point in relationships where all of a sudden it's like, you're not the holy being that I thought you were anymore. And I want something more. I'm longing for something more. So when it's at that point of I'm wanting something more, of then saying, okay, don't blame your partner. It's not your partner's fault. ⁓ Then start to look.

Lian (31:42)

Hmm.

Stephanie MacKay (32:11)

towards the sacred and see that there is a call, there is a hunger, there is a desire, there is a union that is longing for you just as much as you are longing for it.

Lian (32:24)

Hmm.

Yes, and this is this is where culturally, the idea of these fairy tales being only about union between two people sends us on this goose chase for like, well, if it's not here, it must be out there and another person and another person and another person. Yeah.

Stephanie MacKay (32:43)

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And then you get the endless cycle of I'm just keep trying to find it and then I'm just keep finding myself dissatisfied. It's a beautiful thing if a partnership can withstand this moment where essentially the sacred is being invited into the relationship. And if the relationship can move through that.

Lian (32:50)

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie MacKay (33:12)

then you have the human love and you have the sacred love and that's really juicy.

Lian (33:19)

Yes.

So having journey through everywhere we've been so far, what would you suggest to someone listening that's been, it might be one of the stories we've touched on already. It could be a different story that's really spoken to them. ⁓In this moment, the Martin Shores telling of Foxwoman suddenly sprung to mind, which has got very different... Are you familiar with that one? It's got a sad ending. And I'm not usually a sad ending kind of girl, but it's got this iconic final line where, in short, the Foxwoman kind of like turns up in the hunter's life and...

Stephanie MacKay (33:54)

Not very familiar with that one.

yeah.

Lian (34:14)

He is just so, so blessed and intoxicated, enchanted by her and you know, the way she's cooking his meals and mending his clothes. And there's a bit of the leads up to this before he actually knows it's Foxwoman. But then at some point he knows it's Foxwoman. ⁓ And it's all perfect apart from she takes her pelt off and hangs it on the back of the door and it's got that Foxy smell. And little by little that starts to drive him mad.

Stephanie MacKay (34:37)

Mm-hmm.

Lian (34:41)

and there's he's sitting at the table with her one evening and he's like you know my love you've just blessed my life I love you so much but I can't stand the smell of your pelt anymore could you just please perhaps just leave it outside and ⁓ the next day when he comes back from hunting she's gone and the the story ends with

Stephanie MacKay (35:05)

Mm-hmm.

Lian (35:09)

You see him standing at his doorway, lonely in his whole body, aching for Foxwoman.

And that just came to mind all of a sudden and it's this really, you know, melancholic, sad ending that we go from union to that, to the division. And I was going to ask you something completely different, but I'm just going to go on the idea that came into my mind for a reason.

And there's something about the way that each of these different stories speaks to, know, one to you, one to me, one to someone else listening, and probably each of them evokes something different in us. But it might be there's something in that that you want to pick up on. But I was going to ask something in general about what you would suggest to someone who has that story, know, whatever that story is for them that's speaking to them.

Stephanie MacKay (36:11)

Thanks.

Lian (36:12)

what to do next, how to allow it to enter them and show them what's next. So please feel free to go wherever you want from that box of chocolates I've just offered.

Stephanie MacKay (36:18)

Mm-hmm.

Okay, great.

Yeah, okay, great. Think this does bring us to something that I did want to touch on is that there is In a lot of the stories, there's the initial love, there's this moment. And this way in the stories, it's instant love. You know, This is where we get the love at first sight from. Of course, it's love at first sight because they're sacred beings, they're the divine showing up. So it's any time we have a moment, an encounter with

Lian (36:40)

Hmm.

Stephanie MacKay (36:54)

the sacred, it's instant love. So when the sacred shows up, we immediately fall in love And we have this blessed moment or this blessed time in our life where we're enraptured and we feel incredibly blessed, feel totally in love, wrapped in the arms of ecstasy And, and then we lose it. Then there's, there's ⁓ some sort of

Lian (36:54)

Hmm.

you

Stephanie MacKay (37:22)

loss in a lot of the stories, it's a monster or a giant or a dragon comes and takes, you know, the prince or the princess away. ⁓ In you know, the Fox woman stories, you've shared it, or as Martin Shaw shares it, ⁓ there's this the the wild all of a sudden becomes less and less tenable or less and less, you know, ⁓acceptable within this domestic situation. ⁓ So there's a loss for some reason. I think at the end of Fox Woman, we're left with heartbreak.

which is very key in the other stories. It doesn't end that way. The, you know, Prince or Princess is taken away and we actually start with heartbreak. But wherever the heartbreak happens, The heartbreak is a necessary part of this whole journey. And because what it's asking is that, and generally what ends up happening is that when we have hold in our hands and When we hold in our heart,

Lian (38:27)

Hmm.

Stephanie MacKay (38:39)

such profound love, when we lose it, the only thing we want to do is get it back. That's it. We just want to get it back. And how we get it back then sends us on the initiatory journey to become an adult who truly knows how to hold the love that we have.

Lian (38:47)

Hmm.

Stephanie MacKay (39:04)

So if somebody finds themselves in that place, it's then asking the question of what is actually being asked of me? What is necessary for me to get to the place where I have grown enough in my capacity to be able to hold the love that I have in my life? And whatever comes from that question, The life unfolding that comes from that question is the initiatory journey to union with sacred and union with another human being.

Lian (39:44)

Hmm. Yeah, beautiful. I'm glad that Foxwoman decided to enter. ⁓ So going back to, and this is really our final ⁓ point, I think. So on hearing everything that we've said and feeling that connection with a certain story, what next?

Stephanie MacKay (39:52)

That's it. That's it.

Okay, hold on. just want to jump back to Foxwoman for a second. One other thing that I would say, sorry, was well, ⁓ is that if you have that experience with your partner of, just like, their stink is just too much now. just don't like it anymore. Not metaphorically, or literally. ⁓ Know that

Lian (40:31)

Metaphorically or literally?

Stephanie MacKay (40:41)

you're being asked into ⁓ a greater love. Sometimes we have to leave our partners, for sure. ⁓ And sometimes we don't. And this goes back to what I was saying, is that if the partner can hold that then journey to retrieving the heart of your beloved from the underworld.

Lian (40:46)

mmm

Stephanie MacKay (41:08)

then that human partnership will remain. ⁓ So it's not to look and blame the human partner, it's to look where else you are being called to come into union with love.

Lian (41:19)

Mmmmm

Yes, that's ⁓

There's so much there. ⁓ I was thinking there's a culture, if we were able to recognise that there is a ⁓ separate journey for us to go on, that can take place within our current partnership, it doesn't necessarily mean that we need to leave it because it could be sustained within it. And I think we lack that understanding because again, we think we're looking for another human love.

Stephanie MacKay (41:42)

I'm asleep.

Mm-hmm.

Thank you.

Lian (42:00)

and it often isn't the case. Yeah, I'm really glad you went back there. Thank you. So our final question. Sure. So having heard everything we've journeyed with, it might be that listeners already have a story that has been calling them and kind of, you know, sitting at the...

Stephanie MacKay (42:06)

Yes. So, I'm sorry, can you ask it again? Can you ask it again? Okay.

Lian (42:23)

nudging at the edge of their psyche and then now realizing, ⁓ I now know why, and it could be one of those stories we talked about, it could be another one, is like, I now know why that's kind of been there, kind of speaking to me all this time. I'm now ready to allow it to enter me more deeply, to show me what's next. How would you suggest they perhaps could go about that?

Stephanie MacKay (42:44)

Mmm.

Great question. Because we're holding, we're talking about essentially a relationship with the sacred and how we navigate that in the human world and in, you know, the holy world. ⁓ I go to ceremony. And this is what I talk about with my clients and when I'm, you know, guiding somebody through a situation like this is to enter into ceremony because ceremony is the language of the sacred and so to to approach the story and to know that stories are living beings there and if a story is holding you if you are you know deeply in a story there's a reason why and that story who is a living being has something for you And so one step would be is to just start with ⁓ some self-designed ceremony that says yes, that says, hear you, I'm listening, and please guide me or please show me the next step. ⁓ It's essentially, know, entering into the agreement of I agree to this journey with you and

Lian (44:10)

Mmm.

Stephanie MacKay (44:11)

And I don't know the path. I'm, you know, this humble human being whose culture has forgotten so much. And I live with that amnesia within me and I don't know the way. Please show me. And be in ceremony just in that way to start. ⁓ And then beyond that, pay attention to what shows up. Pay attention to if then a next stage in the story captures you, if something else.

Lian (44:25)

Hmm.

Stephanie MacKay (44:40)

Go deeper into the story. Like, you know, there's so much in the story. Stories are endless. We can just keep going deeper and deeper in the story. Find a mentor who can, you know, help you understand where you're at in the story, what the story has to tell us about the next steps for you on your journey, what's coming up next. Somebody who knows the terrain that can.

can guide you into this deeper relationship with the living being of story and the sacred.

Lian (45:13)

Yeah. ⁓ gosh. This is one of those conversations that we could just go on and on on with, but I really loved that. It brought to mind, in fact, was, I believe that some of your trainings with the Animus Institute, wasn't it? Bill Plotkin's work. It was actually a course I was doing many years ago with the Animus Institute and

Stephanie MacKay (45:34)

Mm-hmm.

Lian (45:44)

one of the one of the rituals we did was to go and do a ceremony similar to, ⁓ you know, with a figure in the wild. And I was in this, I'd been kind of like going through the six months Dark Knight of the Soul at the time. And I did this ceremony at a yew tree and It was, I've done many, many ceremonies and you know, of all different kinds. And this one, just, as you said, that I was like, wow, you know, it was very simple in nature. Probably one of the simplest ceremonies I've ever done. It was so profound what took place at that tree. I haven't got the time or even the words to describe everything that happened. But the next morning I woke up and I just like been propelled out of that. six months on that very next morning. And I knew it was because of what happened in the ceremony. It was so profound. just brought just just saying the being from the story to life in such a way that it was a immediate transformation. And of course, it's not always going to be like that. It's not always going to be, you know, this radical night and day difference. It just in that moment, it was for me.

⁓ But it was as simple as that really. was simple and as profound as that, just animating that figure from the story in a ceremony. And it was that profound.

Stephanie MacKay (47:18)

Exactly. Yeah. And it doesn't have to be, we have this, you know, idea that ceremony has to be this big, elaborate, complicated thing and, you know, but it can be a very simple ceremony. The key is, is that ceremony is the language of the sacred. And so when we enter into ceremony, it's a very direct conversation and expression.

Lian (47:35)

Hmm.

Stephanie MacKay (47:47)

to the other world. And yeah, it's beautiful, absolutely beautiful what can happen on the other side and the power of it, which is essentially the response. It's the response to the other world. And yeah.

Lian (47:54)

Mm.

Yes.

it.

The, ⁓ what you just said there about how simple it can be. There's two things that came to mind. One in this instance, it was so simple. mean, it was, if I recall correctly, was many years ago, but it was like me, the U tree and an offering and some words. I mean, it was really, it wasn't even particularly long either, but it was the one of the most powerful of my life. And then it also brought to mind the, poem praying by Mary Oliver, which I've just, ⁓

Stephanie MacKay (48:22)

Yes, exactly.

Lian (48:36)

I've just brought up, I'm going to read because I think it's a perfect way to end this conversation.

Stephanie MacKay (48:41)

Beautiful.

Lian (48:43)

It doesn't have to be the blue iris. It could be weeds in a vacant lot or a few small stones. Just pay attention, then patch a few words together and don't try to make them elaborate. This isn't a contest, but the doorway into thanks and a silence in which another voice may speak.

Stephanie MacKay (49:04)

Beautiful. Thank you, Lian.

Lian (49:08)

Thank you. And thank you, Mary Oliver. ⁓ my gosh, this has been a gorgeous conversation. Thank you. And as I'm sure listeners will want to, where can they find out more about you and your lovely work?

Stephanie MacKay (49:11)

Mm-hmm.

Absolutely. So the best place to learn more is just at my website, StephanieMakai.ca. I have some online offerings coming up, which would be great. Some mythology offerings online. ⁓ And of course, in person events. But ⁓ yeah, that would be for more local folks. But StephanieMakai.ca.

and you'll find everything and there's opportunities for mentoring as well and you can reach out and get in touch with me or ⁓ listen to other recordings there as well.

Lian (50:00)

Beautiful. Thank you so much. I love the fact we both had our dogs kind of weaving around in the background during the conversations as well. Thank you so much, Stephanie. Such a pleasure.

Stephanie MacKay (50:04)

I know.

Thank you so much, Lian It's been wonderful to be here with you.

Lian (50:17)

What a wonderful episode. Here are the parts that I'll be taking with me. Eros in myth reveals the soul's appetite for the sacred and can transform how we see love in everyday life. When projections upon our partner softens, love becomes both more human and more divine. Ceremony doesn't need to be grand. Even a few words and an offering can reopen the conversation between the human and the holy. If you'd like to hop on over to the show notes for the links, they're at BeMythical.com/podcast/526

And as you heard me say earlier, if you're struggling with the challenges of walking your soul path in this crazy modern world, and would benefit from guidance, kinship and support, come join Unio, the community for wild, sovereign souls. You can find out more and join us by hopping over to BeMythical.com slash Unio now, or click the link in the description. Let's walk the path home together. And if you don't want to miss our next week's episode, head on over to your podcasting app or platform of choice, including YouTube and hit that subscribe or follow button. That way you'll get each episode delivered straight to your device, auto magically as soon as it's released.

Thank you so much for listening. You've been wonderful. I'm sending you all my love. I'll catch you again next week. And until then, go be mythical.

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