The truth about why we stopped singing together - Barbara McAfee

Self IlluminationEmbodimentrewildingspirit
Written By Lian Brook-Tyler

Episode 543, released 9th April 2026.

Voice coach and author Barbara McAfee explains why so many people are afraid to sing, what group singing does to the nervous system and the sense of self, and why the loss of communal song may be one of the most significant things modern life has taken from us.

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Barbara is a voice coach, author, speaker, and performer, with over 30 years of experience helping people unlock their full voice through practical vocal techniques and tools for authentic, flexible self expression.

In this episode, Lian and Barbara explore what actually happens when people sing together, why the fear of singing runs so deep in so many of us, and how recorded, pitch-corrected music has done to the human voice something similar to what airbrushed images have done to the human body.

They look at the oral tradition as a living technology for transmitting knowledge, holding grief, and keeping communities in tune across generations, and at the way group singing can restore something that most people don't realise they've been missing until it returns.

From there, the conversation moves into singing at the threshold of death, the Morning Star Singers' eighteen years of bedside work, and what Barbara has witnessed about the way song changes the experience of dying, for the person leaving and for everyone gathered around them.

Listen if you've ever felt the pull to sing with others but the fear talked you of it before you even began.

We’d love to know what YOU think about this week’s show. Let’s carry on the conversation…  please leave a comment below.

What you’ll learn from this episode:

  • Why the fear of singing in a group runs so much deeper than shyness, and what actually put it there

  • How group singing can move faster than team building, therapy, or any amount of talking when it comes to creating genuine connection

  • What happens when singing is brought into hospitals and hospices, and why staff and patients alike respond as if they are remembering something

Resources and stuff spoken about:

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Thank you!
Lian & Jonathan

Episode Transcript:

Please note: We are a small team and not able to check through the transcript our software provides. So you may find some words are out of place and a few sentences don’t make complete sense. If you do see something utterly ridiculous we’d love you to let us know so we can correct it. Please email any howlers with the time stamp to team@bemythical.com.

Lian (00:00)

Could communal song be one of the most vital things modern life has taken from us without us even noticing? Hello, my beautiful soul seekers. This week I'm joined once again by voice coach, author and performer Barbara McAfee to explore why so many of us are afraid to sing. And that includes me once upon a time too, what group singing does to the nervous system and the sense of self and why the loss of communal song.

Maybe one of the most significant things we've lost in this crazy modern world. So Barbara is a voice coach, author, speaker and performer with over 30 years of experience, helping people to unlock their full voice through practical vocal techniques and tools for authentic, flexible

Together we explore what actually happens when people come together to sing. Why the fear of singing runs so deep in so many of us and how recorded pitch corrected music, which of course is what we're listening to all the time when we're listening to songs on, radio or records and so forth. And what that's done to the human voice, which is so similar to what those airbrushed images have done to our relationship to the human body. So listen if you've ever felt the pull to sing with others, but the fear talked you out of it before you even begun. But first, if you've just arrived here, welcome. If you've come back, welcome home.

And if you keep finding yourself here without subscribing, your soul clearly knows what it's doing. Go ahead and answer that call and subscribe. It's challenging to live in this crazy modern world. Wild sovereign soul is what we know will help. And so if you're struggling with the challenges of walking your soul path and your heart longs for guidance, kinship and support, come join us in UNIO, the community for soul seekers. UNIO is the living home for the wild sovereign soul path.

Where together we reclaim our wildness, actualise our sovereignty and awaken our souls. You can discover more and walk with us by hopping over to BeMythical.com/unio or click the link in the description.

And if you're called to go even deeper on your wild sovereign soul path, join us for the upcoming wild sovereign soul course, a three month live immersive and initiatory journey into becoming a wild sovereign soul.

It's actually the first course crucible of this kind that Jonathan and I, co-founder of Wild Sovereign Soul, have co-led since two years ago. So if you know me in numbers, I won't even try and attempt to say which year it is, was two years ago. So this is something very special and we are going to absolutely pour our heart and souls into it. So if you want to join us register your interest at bemythical.com slash WSS.

And now back to this week's episode, let's dive in.

Lian (03:02)

Barbara. Welcome back to the show.

Barbara McAfee (03:05)

I'm delighted to be here.

Lian (03:10)

I am delighted that you're here. I just was pondering the fact that we were going to be recording earlier today and it brought a smile to my face and I was recalling the fun that we had in our last episode and as I was saying to you, it brought so much up also contemplating the theme that we're going to be exploring today.

And so I just wanted to ask you something before we dive into that, that touches on what we spoke about last episode. I asked something like, can you see how the work that you do today, how it had its kind of the breadcrumbs of that back in childhood? And one of the things you said was the fact you'd been kind of like a secret keeper for your family. And so… the work you do now, as often is the case, it's like we take our own medicine first. And so there was this finding your own voice, using your own voice. And I was contemplating that and I was like, huh, this is so interesting that we focused primarily on the voice kind of outside of talking about it, like in groups, we were just talking about the voice last time. And then I was like, huh, this idea of singing in a group, is the most potent medicine for a secret keeper because you're course then expressing yourself within a wider context, it's the opposite of keeping a secret. And so I would love to know, there's a couple of ways that I could ask this. I'm gonna just sort of say both of them and then do what you will with this.

Barbara McAfee (04:58)

I will.

Lian (04:59)

I was wondering first kind of what came first, the chicken or the egg, as in this recognition of the importance of voice in your own path and work or singing in a group. Was it that that showed you? And so that was kind of like the voice itself or singing in the group. What came first, chicken or the egg? And then also… whether you see it's been vital for you to really be your medicine with that group component and whether indeed you actually see that's true for all of us. So there's a lot there, but I kind of, these were my ponderings, so do with that what you will.

Barbara McAfee (05:45)

And my goodness, so many juicy threads to follow there. So thank you for all your pondering. It's great. Well, singing in a group is actually, it's possible still to hide in a group.

Lian (06:05)

Hmm

Barbara McAfee (06:05)

Because especially in choirs, which is where I grew up, you I had very good choirs. I was very lucky both at church and at school. And so a lot of what you're trying to do in a choir is disappear. You're trying to become one voice. so

Lian (06:20)

Hmm.

Barbara McAfee (06:24)

I could still, I mean, I'm still very tall. I'm a meter 86 or six two, depending on what your system is. So like hiding, ha ha ha. Yeah, it's just never been quite practical. But vocally it's possible, you know, the idea is to blend and become one.

Lian (06:33)

Good luck with that.

Mm. Yes.

Barbara McAfee (06:48)

that is wonderful, it's a wonderful feeling to be a person but also be part of a larger organism that is making something beautiful. So I got that experience often and beautifully as a young person. And...

Lian (06:54)

Hmm.

Barbara McAfee (07:07)

And I've always known that people need to sing together partly because of my family. I don't remember if I mentioned this in our last conversation, but my grandfather was a choir director. He also was a great soloist and sang on the radio in Iowa where he lived with my mom and her family. And directed a group of senior singers. When he was, I mean, well into his eighties, he would pick people up who were 10 years younger than him to take them to choir practice. So he loved getting people singing together.

Lian (07:40)

wow.

Barbara McAfee (07:45)

at church, the alumni choir at the school where he attended high school 100,000 years ago. So he had that and my mother had that also. She had a degree in music from university. She directed some school choirs and then she had a family and like many women in her generation didn't work outside the home except then she did church choirs with her best friend. and then my brother, my big brother who's seven years older was a choir director at school. At a school, yeah. So it feels like it runs in the family is a short way to put it. And I kind of, didn't, I didn't, it wasn't something I did as a, as a younger person. But when I started doing vocal work,

Lian (08:22)

Goodness, okay, kinda.

Barbara McAfee (08:39)

I did my own vocal work and then I started bringing other people into the, there were voices and I realized that a lot of them wanted the experience of singing but didn't know how to read music. Choir is a complicated thing. You have to know how to read music. You have to know the whole kind of infrastructure and many people never had that.

Lian (08:57)

Mmm.

Barbara McAfee (09:01)

And so I just started creating opportunities for people to bring their new pink nervous little voices and come into community and to feel their voice in the context of we instead of just me. So yeah, it was very organic, all of it.

Lian (09:11)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Mm.

Yeah. And so in a funny way, I guess you have sort of answered like what came first, the chicken or the egg, kind of singing in a group came first-ish, but I feel like that was as often as the case, it was kind of a not necessarily conscious backdrop to something deeper that was going to call you.

Barbara McAfee (09:38)

Yes.

Lian (09:50)

but I can see it was so part of your landscape in such an incredible way, really. I mean, it's now obvious why you've ended up doing what you're doing. I love that. So, hmm.

Barbara McAfee (09:59)

Yes.

Lian (10:05)

I'm going to share some of my own experiences, and then I'm going to lead into the question that I have. So my father was a very good musician. And so I grew up not in the same kind of more formal way that you grew up in a kind of environment of people singing, but it was so normal in my household for us to sing together, whoever was there. So, you know, it might just be me and him, but it could be if I had a friend around, they'd join in or if he had friends around. So it was this kind of just normal fabric of our life was to sing together. And then I had an experience when I was maybe in my late teens where we'd gone along to a jazz singing workshop, a one day workshop.

And I was really happy to be part of that again, cause I'd grown up singing. had no, no real feeling of, it didn't, it didn't feel like it was particularly scary in the way I know for a lot of people it can be. And then had this moment we'd spent all the day kind of singing in smaller groups or one-to-one learning different things. And then we got up at the front at the end where we're all going to kind of come together and do our thing. And, I went to sing, and all of a sudden just fear like froze my voice and nothing really came out. was like impossible for me to sing. I would literally kind of squeak, stroke, whispered, stroked nothing. And I was so surprised as well because again, it wasn't what I was anticipating would happen. So was like this double like, my goodness, that can happen.

Barbara McAfee (11:44)

god, honey.

Lian (11:55)

And it then, that was until later on, which I'll probably come to later, that was like, okay, I don't do singing in a group in public from now on, you know, those kind of deals we make with ourselves, like, let's protect ourselves from ever having to experience that again. I don't do that. And I was, I was recalling that as I was pondering us having this conversation and In some ways, I'm quite glad I had that experience because it allowed me to understand what really can get in the way of people singing in a group. mean, there's so much to love about it, which I'm sure we'll get into a moment, but I feel as though we need to talk first to the elephant in the room of why don't we? Why do so many of us hold back from doing that?

And in fact, it probably is right up there with public speaking is, as I imagine, one of our greatest collective fears. So I'd love to hear you, I'm sure you've come across so many people who have had experiences like mine or just won't even put themselves in that position. I'd love to hear you say a bit about what's going on, but how we can meet ourselves and each other in that.

Barbara McAfee (13:15)

My gosh, there's so many, there's so much that I hear over just in the course of my work.

People telling stories like yours of an experience that was excruciating, the stuff of nightmares really, or of a curse that someone put on them. Someone said something when they were nine or six or 11. A lot of women especially hit, well, women and men hit puberty and women often go underground or, you know, they, like the confident girl suddenly turns into

Lian (13:37)

Mmm

Barbara McAfee (13:55)

to the like, tormented adolescent. And for boys becoming men, suddenly, they're boys, they're be reliable. This thing that has been so reliable is unreliable and embarrassing. So we all have this kind of, it can be a very treacherous journey to grow up vocally and.

Lian (14:00)

Mmm.

Hmm. Yeah.

Barbara McAfee (14:25)

There's all kinds of possible pitfalls. I think there's a cultural piece too that.

Until very recently, I'd loved hearing that you lived in a house of song. That is so, that's a rich heritage, even though you kind of hit the wall, because I think that's how humans lived most of the time. And many still do. That is no like Netflix, there's no devices, there's no TV, there's us and the winter is long. And it's how we communicate everything.

Lian (14:42)

Mmm.

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Barbara McAfee (15:03)

before the printing press. I remember when I was writing my first book, was, when that really struck me how long people lived without written, the written word.

Lian (15:05)

Hmm.

Yes.

Barbara McAfee (15:18)

And how did you transmit your creation myths, your religious rituals, like what mushrooms not to eat. When it's time to plant where the different crops are in my part of the world right now, people are tapping maple trees for syrup. I live in a valley full of maple trees and for

Lian (15:28)

Hmm

Barbara McAfee (15:47)

centuries. I don't even know how long. The Native American people who live north of here would come and camp in the river valley where I live to tap the trees and boil off, boil the sap and make syrup. And then they'd be here for weeks while that happened. And then they'd pack everybody up and head back up. the road they took is quite, you know, the path they took runs right through my friend's farm. So I actually stood on that place.

So how do know when it's time to pack up and come to the valley to tap the trees? You know that wasn't written down anywhere. There was no calendar.

Lian (16:21)

wow.

Mmmmm

Barbara McAfee (16:34)

A lot of it was transmitted through speaking, of course, but song is such an easy way to remember lots of information. You know, the Icelandic sagas that go on for days and days and days. I've heard of a man in Africa who can just recite his the whole story of his family, and it takes a couple of days and everything is precise. So.

Lian (17:02)

Hmm.

Barbara McAfee (17:03)

The oral tradition is deep in our bones and recently lost.

And now we listen to other people. We become passive consumers of this thing that's deeply human and belongs to all of us. And what we're listening to is all perfected through technology. I mean, I've recorded for years and years and years, many recordings, and I have watched my recording engineer redraw a sound wave to make it perfect. And so we think that's what singing sounds like.

Lian (17:17)

Yeah.

Hmm.

Barbara McAfee (17:38)

is that perfected, reverbed, pitch corrected robot noise that is not how human beings actually sound. And so we measure, it's kind of like what the media does with women's bodies. You know, we're measuring ourselves against an airbrushed image and it's similar with sound. We're measuring ourselves. And then these are also, lot of these people are,

Lian (17:49)

yeah, true.

Hmm.

Yes.

Barbara McAfee (18:05)

exquisitely talented, you know, and we're, we may not have that level of gift, so we don't think we should even try.

Lian (18:07)

Hmm.

Yeah, gosh, so much in what you've just said. I was pondering something completely, well, seemingly completely different the other day. And it brought me present once again, I feel like I come back to this over and over again, how before the written word, we kept those records and handed down those records through the medium of stone, so temples, markings on temples, positions of stones and story. But of course the stories can be in song form. I love the fact that it all begins with S, stories, songs, stones. you're so, such truth there and the reasons for doing so, as you say, I think there's probably

Barbara McAfee (18:54)

Yes.

Lian (19:03)

so many layers to this, but just even looking at those two, the means to hand information down to future generations, but also as you say, know, winter's along, the nights are long, a way to spend time in this joyous commute. Like there's something about that, as you say, sort of turning that me into we, that a song does so beautifully.

There's so much here and it made me think of, I'll skip forward to the more recent experience I've had of singing in a group, which really touches on this. When I began my shamanic training years ago now, I didn't know, and maybe I would have had even more reluctance if I had known this. One of the things I hadn't realized until I arrived there on the very first day, was how much singing would do in a group. And this was obviously, I hadn't faced that wound that had got created back in teenage years until this point. I had no idea. I didn't know that there'd be any singing involved. And there was actually so much singing involved. I mean, it's probably the one thing we did more together than any other thing. And so it brought me present to that wound. And...

Barbara McAfee (20:02)

Hmm.

Lian (20:29)

I remember the first few times together, we were kind of camping in the woods together, a bit like you were just saying, there weren't any other ways to spend time really, apart from the work that we were doing. And so we'd be sitting around a campfire singing. And that, it just felt like we could have been doing that any time in human history. There would have been, apart from...

the clothes we were wearing, there was nothing really else that distinguished it from a hundred years ago, thousands of years ago, you know, going back all these times. And it felt as though there was something, ⁓ like a remembrance that was, it was coming alive in my bones. This feels so right to be doing. I then of course then had to come face to face with my wound of any time that my voice would be exposed within that group was again, part of, I think in some ways what brought me to the woods and to that training, but it really gave me the appreciation of exactly what you're saying. some of the songs we'd sing were medicine songs, were songs that did have this wisdom encoded in the words, in the tunes, in the energy of it. And it seemed to me having had those experiences that It's one of the things we're actually missing most in this modern world. There's so much in that medicine of singing together as a group that it's like, it's almost like not to be a conspiracy theorist. is it, it certainly keeps us away from each other and away from our power. The way that we've seemed to have so little now be singing as a group.

So anyway, I wanted to share that because I've experienced firsthand so much of what you're saying here in a way that I'd say has kind of forever changed my relationship now to singing and singing in a group. And then I wanted to ask you, I know that some of the work you do, as you've said, is helping people to come together to sing as a group, perhaps for the very first time, but you also...

Barbara McAfee (22:28)

Okay.

Lian (22:54)

sing in situations that are around death and dying. And so this isn't a particularly well-formed question, but I feel like it has something to do, like the clue lies in everything we've just been talking about in terms of these sort of ancient roots. But what you see is like, why have you been brought to those two different ways of singing? What's perhaps the synergy between them? What is it that we need to know about that?

Barbara McAfee (23:24)

Okay, so I want to go back to your conspiracy theory because I think when we are, I think there's a lot of systems in play and I don't think there's a master plan. I think this is organically how capitalism and patriarchy have unfolded. And it runs on us feeling alone and somehow not good enough. Because then we will buy things, then we will

Lian (23:41)

Mmm.

Barbara McAfee (23:53)

not notice how remarkable and powerful we are together, individually and together. So I think it's, it is a direct result and it cuts us off from the ancestral. We don't have a link. We don't, we feel like we're all there is, you know, there's no before, there's no after. There's just me and my little tired ego just sitting here feeling like crap.

Lian (24:06)

Mm.

Barbara McAfee (24:18)

So I do think it is a byproduct of these systems running the show. And if we had any idea about our wild, powerful, ancient, magical selves, we wouldn't need all that stuff. So so I think it is a direct result. And if we can.

Lian (24:19)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Barbara McAfee (24:46)

give up doing something ourselves and buy it from someone else that I mean the whole thing kind of runs on that so so yeah so I do think there is something there that is actually true so I

Lian (24:52)

Yeah.

Barbara McAfee (25:06)

Love watching what happens when people get together and sing. I just gathered a little group on Saturday at a little folk school down the river from me. There never may be 15, 20 of us. Some people were new, know, some people had come to this gathering a lot. And we just sang for an hour and a half and like within a song or two.

The beauty we were making together was unbelievable. And some of the people have grown up singing the choirs and know how to make harmony by ear. And some people are feeling lucky to hold down just the main melody. But it doesn't matter. It never matters. There's always something that happens among us very quickly. And I… started small. was living in Minneapolis for about 40 years and I would gather maybe 10 or 12 people and it was costing me more to pay for the room than they were donating. I mean, it was just like, why am I doing this? Why? You know, and then I think I'll quit and then I wouldn't, I'd keep going. And, but it built and it built and it built over many years. So it really shifted when

Lian (26:23)

Hmm.

Barbara McAfee (26:29)

I moved from using it as a way to make money for me in this particular kind, this one community context, and used it as a way to raise money for a good cause. All of a sudden, it just broke open in a beautiful way. And I got inspired by some friends of mine who have a choir in Victoria, British Columbia, and they do a concert and they give all the money away. And I'm like,

Lian (26:43)

Hmm.

Barbara McAfee (26:58)

Let's try that. So all of a sudden, this friend of mine was working at this church with a great big beautiful room. And she said, we'll give you the room. And for many years, we raised money for solar powered lanterns in the developing world. Because a friend of mine created an NGO. She's a photojournalist who went all over the world. to Rwanda, went to Afghanistan, Haiti after the earthquake, Pakistan after that earthquake. mean, all of these places.

and light was necessary. So we raised, we called it singing in the light and we sang for our own illumination and also for specific people whose lives would be enriched by the presence of this free source of light. So yeah, so and I continue at least in some of my song circles to do that.

Lian (27:32)

Mmm.

beautiful.

Barbara McAfee (27:58)

to just give all the money away. And it's delightful that we get fed and then we also lately we've been giving the money to a… group that connects local farmers with Indigenous elders. So because we sang there would be a knock at the door and there'll be a box of fresh food for some lovely older Native person. Isn't that great? I mean, makes me so happy. So we've given thousands of dollars to them over the last year since I moved here. That's where we've been giving our money. So the

Lian (28:21)

Yes!

Barbara McAfee (28:39)

Gatherings have taught me so much just by being in them for so long about, you know, what human beings are capable of. And without...

Lian (28:50)

Mmm.

Barbara McAfee (28:53)

the usual, you know, in a choir there's someone in the front who's waving their hands and making, you know, sure that everything works the way it should and everybody's watching that person. In these gatherings, we're mostly in a circle or concentric circles. And I teach, you know, I use my hands. There's no… No paper. I teach her the line at a time. And sometimes it's different parts. So if you like that part, you go over there. If you like this part, you go over there. If you don't like any of them, you stand in the middle and listen. And we learn it in the old way, in the oral tradition. I sing it, you sing it back. And then we put it all together like a puzzle. And it's, wah, it's incredible.

Lian (29:35)

I don't know.

Barbara McAfee (29:37)

Early on, I started this experiment where I would just start a song, maybe the second or third song. And this was maybe a group of 40, 50 people, a quarter of whom were new, had never been with me or in that room. I'd get the song started and then I would sit down and I would shut all my leadership down.

and I would give the group to the song, right? Or give the song to the group. I don't know. I give the song to the group first and then the song, you know, and they decided again and again when it was over, together.

Lian (29:58)

Mmm.

Hehehehehe

Barbara McAfee (30:16)

And this happened over and over and over. And then I tried it with a hundred people, a hundred clergy people in Wisconsin, and they did it. And then I did the same thing with 300 people in Manitoba.

Lian (30:16)

Hmm.

Barbara McAfee (30:33)

And 300 people decided that it was over. And I was like, you know, I did 12 years as an organisational consultant doing team building and leadership development and all these things. that, my God, just should have had them sing together. Cause they got there without like, I know, I don't know. Well, the closest thing, and then I did a Ted talk with almost a thousand people in a room and they did it. And then that is in the show notes, the link to that Ted talk.

Lian (30:48)

Oh my gosh, yes. What's going on there? What do you make of that?

Wow.

Barbara McAfee (31:04)

And it, I know me too. I thought it would, I mean, I was so fascinated by this. I thought, well, maybe I'll do a Ted talk about it and see what I think about it. And I felt almost a thousand people. I was like, they just decided it was over. And there was no like little, it was just boom, stop. And then the silence after that was like.

Lian (31:05)

I've got chills.

Hmm, done.

Barbara McAfee (31:33)

you know and then the whole room blew up and I I was very happy it happened because I didn't have an alternative ending

Lian (31:33)

Yeah...

Eheh!

That would have been inconvenient !

Barbara McAfee (31:50)

Or just part of it is I know that part of what makes that work is my conviction. Right? So there is a role as a leader for this. Part of it is the conviction, part of it is teaching it, part of it is creating the conditions for people to tap into their innate genius, their collective genius, knowing when to step in and when to step back. And over these years, I've learned how to do that.

Lian (32:07)

Mmm.

Hmm.

Barbara McAfee (32:22)

So the closest thing I can think of, Lian is that it's like the trees have those mycelial fungal webs between them. I think humans have that as well. And people can sometimes find it in sporting events or dancing or you can see it in the murmurations of starlings, you know, or fish. I saw fish when I was swimming in Mexico just a few weeks ago, all these little fish.

Lian (32:29)

Hmm.

Mmm.

Barbara McAfee (32:52)

all moving together. I think we have that too and singing lights it up. So that's my explanation for that and I'll get to your question about death but I'll stop talking for a minute.

Lian (32:56)

Mmm.

Yeah.

There's a question I've got related, but I'm going to hold on to it actually, because I feel like there is something important about singing and death that I feel I want to make sure that we honor. So I'd love to hear you talk to that and then I'll save my question.

Barbara McAfee (33:23)

Yes.

Okay, okay, okay. So I have been around a lot of death. I was in a community of friends who

lost someone at 52 and then his daughter and her best friend at 17 and 18 and then a baby at birth and then a guy at 81 and 93 and 26 and this same group of people when the first one was in the hospital he was being breathed by a machine his brain was gone I was there I didn't know people all that well yet and someone turned to me and said Barbara do you have a song I was like oh god

Lian (33:46)

Goodness.

Barbara McAfee (34:11)

So guess, sure, sure. So I think I sang Swing Low Sweet Chariot or something and they were singing people. they joined in and then the next song showed up and we sang. And then this man's daughter who was the only one who wasn't ready to let him go yet. She was 15. I know. And after we sang for a while, she said, I want some time alone with my papa. So we all left.

Lian (34:18)

Mmm.

Barbara McAfee (34:39)

And then she came out a few minutes later and she said, okay, I can let him go. And they unplugged him. And I asked her later what happened in there. And she said, I just sang him every Beatles song he ever taught me. I know. So that was interesting. I was like, there's something happening here.

Lian (34:59)

you

Barbara McAfee (35:03)

A couple years later, she died with her best friend in a car accident. Her mother was gravely injured. And we sang our way through all of that. We sang our way through the impossible, you know, through her own healing and grieving. We sang at the funerals of both girls. And as each thing came by, you know, we would sing the songs that held us the last time. was like, well, we got through that last one, that last impossible thing, and we'll get through this impossible thing. So that experience was happening in my friendship life. And I heard about a woman named Kate Munger from California who… started this thing called the threshold choirs. They are now all over the world. And it's just the old, she didn't invent it, she just remembered it. They were people who singing a group, handful of people singing for people at the bedside, people who are dying or sick or sad or depressed or whatever.

And I thought, well, maybe one day when I stop chasing around the world, I'll start one of those. And I didn't wait until I stopped chasing around the world. just started it. And, cause you know, I, and I already had a group of people, singers around me, you know? So I said, I just sent a note to everybody in that group and said, Hey, I'm thinking about starting this. You want to come? And we all met at a park and, now we're 18 years, over 18 years of doing this work.

We're called the Morning Star Singers. men and women. When Kate started the Threshold Network, she just had women. And so I said, nah, I got a lot of wonderful men in my community and they're going to die too. So let's get busy. So everybody assumes we're from a church of some kind or a religious tradition. And we are not. We have people from all traditions and no tradition spiritually.

We sing songs, we do sing some songs, like Christian hymns, because there's been a lot of Lutherans dying where I live. So we have to sing songs that they recognise. But then I've written a bunch of songs for us to sing and collected old ones and new ones. And it's a beautiful community. we just, a couple of years ago, we sang one of our most beloved members, Bill.

Lian (37:31)

Mmm.

Barbara McAfee (37:37)

through six years of cancer from diagnosis until just a couple days before he died. He wasn't talking much but he could still sing his tenor part. And he and his wife were so kind to let us hold them all the way through.

that experience and he's still with us because he always loved these particular songs. You know what I mean? would always, everybody start, we sit in circle and anybody can start a song because I'm not always there.

Lian (38:02)

Mmm.

Barbara McAfee (38:08)

right at these things. Anybody can start a song and he would always start these same songs. So he's kind of haunting us through, in a good way, through these songs. And we sing, we're on call, people can just call us and we'll show up for free. And then we also sing about once a month at a long-term acute care hospital, which we did before COVID as well for I think 10 years.

Lian (38:18)

Hehehehe. Hmm.

Barbara McAfee (38:38)

And that hospital closed and now we have this, finally found a new home where people are there often for weeks, months even. And a little group will walk around and go into the rooms and sing a couple of songs. And it's good for the patients and it's also really good for the staff. They're tired.

Lian (38:53)

Hmm.

Yeah. my goodness.

Barbara McAfee (39:03)

And the one thing I want to say also is that to go way back to like 10 minutes ago when we were talking about why we don't sing together, I think singing has gotten mixed up with performance.

Lian (39:16)

Hmm.

Barbara McAfee (39:17)

And in many cultures around the world right now and in older cultures, singing was not about people who were talented standing up in front and doing something. There were always those, always people with gifts, yes. But it was in addition to singing as a function of life, right? And this is not performance. This is a gift, you know?

Lian (39:35)

Hmm.

Yes.

Barbara McAfee (39:43)

This is a gift from one soul to another or from a group of souls to another. And I think if you think of that, if you think of offering a gift, it's a whole different story than am I being perfect?

Lian (39:56)

Yeah, absolutely. My goodness. Everything you've just shared, I feel like we could have done an episode just on this actually, but there's so much there. Was… just trying to choose the order in which I say all these things. There's an episode I did, maybe six months or so, came to mind where it's a woman who, initially trained, I think it was as a doula or, I think actually started off more in the sort of science side of things to do at birth and then trained in a bit more sort of alternative style. Then was introduced to shamanic drumming.

Barbara McAfee (40:16)

Yeah.

Lian (40:43)

in working with mothers and then took that into the hospital. And I remember having this like profound experience when she was describing it, like, my goodness, I could just feel how something like, just like you're saying with death, same with birth, this is how we would have journeyed through these things for most of human history. And that juxtaposition of this ancient

way of doing things, suddenly put into this modern environment of a hospital, I could, could viscerally feel how that would ripple out and like what that would create and how it would awaken, not just, as you say, the person that you're singing for, but the staff, everyone in that hospital, but also how it could be confronting. You know, this, this isn't the right thing to be doing in a hospital or at a birth or at a death. I was suddenly brought back present to all of that that is contained in something as seemingly simple as singing in a hospital or a hospice and how much power that has. So yeah, I feel like there's so much there that is probably beyond we can even really understand. I can kind of feel like I get a taste of it. And then I was also brought back, my mother was on a life support machine in like for a few days before and then she died. And it was just, the whole thing was so clinical, unnatural. Everyone was doing their best, but like so devoid of humanity really. And I was imagining, my goodness, what difference that would have made if we'd had song, if we'd had song in those times and how it would have transformed those days.

And yes, was just like, my goodness, there is so much here. And often it's through those thresholds like birth and death that we really get that opportunity to meet what's really here for us. And so, yeah, so, so much, so much there.

Barbara McAfee (42:53)

Sure.

Yeah, and at the very least it keeps us breathing, you know, because there's this, you know, and to be just, even just breathing. And we have had very little pushback about singing in hospitals. Mostly people remember. I was like, oh, right, oh, right.

Lian (43:04)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Barbara McAfee (43:23)

This is what we do. I forgot this is what we do. And it's also prompted me to do more work with my own death and dying. Both my parents, I was present for their process of dying, one at 67 and one at almost 95. So I was a different person, you know, in my 30s than in nearly 60.

Lian (43:24)

Yeah.

Mmm. Wow, yes.

Mmm.

Barbara McAfee (43:47)

But then have also been present, you know, around the deaths of other friends. A good one, a very good friend died just within the last couple of years. And she died in a hospital, but they were very sweet. And we sang a lot as she was journeying. And we washed her body and sang. And there's a way that the singing has been a doorway into really looking at death and dying in a different way and I've actually written my own death song and supported others in writing their death song. What does a good death look like for you? And now I'm actually leading retreats called Living, Dying, Music and Mystery. So far they're all in the states but you know but we spend time telling stories about death and dying, singing a lot so people go home with some songs they can sing

Lian (44:27)

Mmm.

Barbara McAfee (44:45)

for themselves or others around them and then also just envisioning what a good death might look like. So I mean, the choir was, you know, they're the little Morning Star singers was a doorway into doing this work of service and sacredness and community. And then it's also opened this whole exploration of death and dying that is now informing a whole new kind of offering that I'm making in the world.

Lian (45:18)

How beautiful. So we are up on time and this leads to the question I wanted to ask you, but it's quite practical in nature too. So I was thinking of people watching or listening to this. I suspect many of them will be like, my goodness. Yes. Yes. You know, my soul is longing for this. And

I was then like, what does that look like for people around the world? And I was recalling how my sister recently joined a kind of, I guess you'd call it a choir. And her experience of being kind of like put into a section, like, you know, she sang and they sort of said, you know, this is your register, so you're then part of this group. She found that really… quite off putting, like it felt constraining and like not really the essence of why she joined in the first place. And so that was in my mind. And so for people hearing the call in what you're saying, what would you suggest? Like, how can they, I mean, I know that you don't know what's in every area, but what might be some principles or way of moving to find… the group to sing with or create the group to sing with, what might someone be looking for?

Barbara McAfee (46:44)

boy, have I got a resource for you. My friends at the Natural Voice Network, if you just Google Natural Voice Network, they do a lot of non-audition choirs, community singing, mostly in the UK. And yeah.

And I met several of the choir directors when I was traveling in Scotland and enjoyed the heck out of them. So there's a whole network of people that are doing this kind of singing in the UK. The other resource that I know has been really catching fire here in the States with the rise of the, I don't even know what to say about it, the thing. A bunch of my friends in Minneapolis created Singing Resistance, which is a community of singers that have gone out into the streets and sung for people who were in their houses afraid to leave because they were going to get, you know, taken away, whether they were citizens or not. And thousands of people have been gathering to sing to raise rent money for those folks who can't work, to encourage the people from ICE, the enforcement people to quit.

Lian (47:44)

Mmm.

Barbara McAfee (48:03)

And so they have created a whole toolkit for people to sing together to resist, I don't know, the lack of humanity that is at large in, not just in the US, but...

rising in many places in the world. And it's a beautiful way to be together. if you just look for singing resistance, they have a toolkit, a bunch of songs, guidelines, they've been doing calls, I guess, 8000 people were on a zoom call over to two zoom calls to help people who want to create a singing resistance community in their community. and I'll be leading singing with several hundred people of my neighbours here, my

Lian (48:27)

Mmm.

Barbara McAfee (48:52)

little rural community at a No Kings March next Saturday. I know. So the Natural Voice Network would really be a great resource for people who just want to sing and the singing resistance. And then the other thing is you could also just start talking to your friends and

Lian (48:56)

Mmm, amazing.

Mmm.

Barbara McAfee (49:14)

Think of like 10 songs that you remember from childhood or I have a bunch of community songs on my website ⁓ that are just there for people to use, easy to learn. I just gather 10 friends, have a pint, sing a little.

Just try it. And most of us are kind of closeted about it, you know, it's like, but if you, I've noticed that people just start saying, hey, you know, you wouldn't be interested in singing, you? You know?

Lian (49:35)

Yeah.

like a slightly light, like it's a kink or something.

Barbara McAfee (49:54)

Yeah, exactly. It's so scary.

It's so scary for so many people, but I've had people who just, you know, like, instead of getting together to talk about a book or something, they just try it with 10 friends and see what happens.

Lian (50:08)

Mmm.

Yeah, my goodness, so simple and yet something that I think can seem challenging but the invitation that you've made throughout this episode I think makes that feel perhaps more accessible than we might otherwise think.

Barbara McAfee (50:30)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lian (50:31)

Oh my gosh. I love this so much. For listeners who have really felt the call and everything you've been talking about, where can they find out more about you and the wonderful work that you do?

Barbara McAfee (50:43)

The biggest place is my website, which is full of community songs, music videos, and then also courses about the voice that I offer from time to time. The basic entry is full voice fundamentals, which is five weeks and a lot of fun. I'm also creating a self-directed course in the next few months.

And then I teach one-on-one to help people find their voice. So there's just a lot of stuff at my website. It's the easiest access point.

Lian (51:14)

Hmm. And yeah, and we obviously didn't talk much about this because we focused on it last time, but so much of your work is also about that kind of finding one's individual voice. And if, if someone hasn't caught up with that episode, I'd certainly say go, go now dive into that. Cause they, think, make a perfect compliment together.

Oh my gosh. Thank you so much, Barbara. This has been such a pleasure. It really has. Thank you.

Thank you just for doing what you do, really so needed.

Barbara McAfee (51:42)

Thank you.

Thank you. a joy to reconnect with you and your listeners and gosh, why not sing? Why not?

Lian (51:54)

Thank you.

Lian (52:00)

What a wonderful show. It really spoke to me as you probably heard so deeply and really touched into experiences I've had. Here's what stayed with me. The fear of singing in a group doesn't tend to begin with shyness. It begins with a moment, a word that someone said, a way that someone reflected how our voice is, often completely untrue or a time like the example I shared where our voice just didn't come out.

And we are in a culture of course, that separated singing as part of ordinary life and made it something that only professionals did. And so most of us carry all of that without realising it's running in the background. Recorded pitch corrected music has done something to our relationship with a human voice that is really important to recognise when everything we hear has been perfected through technology we begin measuring ourselves against a standard that practically no living human can actually meet. The voice we have isn't a problem, it's the standard, the expectation that we're holding ourselves to. Group singing moves something in people that talking cannot always reach. Again and again in song circles, at bedsides, in hospitals, around the fire, something deep inside us unlocks. People respond as if they're remembering rather than learning. And that's not a coincidence for most of our human history. This is something that we did together and our bodies have not forgotten that. So if you'd like to hop on over to the show notes for the links, they're at bemythical.com slash podcast slash five, four, three.

And as you heard me say earlier, if you're struggling with the challenges of walking your soul path in this crazy modern world, and your heart longs for guidance, kinship and support. You're really not alone. Come join us in UNIO, the community for soul seekers. You can discover more and join us by hopping on over to BeMythical.com/unio now. Let's walk the path home together.

And if you're called to go even deeper on your wild sovereign soul path, come join us for the upcoming live wild sovereign soul course, a three month immersive initiatory journey into becoming a wild sovereign soul. Register your interest at bemythical.com slash WSS.

And if you don't want to miss out on next week's episode and why on earth would you? Head on over to your podcasting app or platform of choice, including YouTube and hit that subscribe or follow button. That way you'll get each episode delivered straight to your device, auto magically, as soon as it comes out. Thank you so much for listening. You've been wonderful. I'll catch you again next week. And until then, I'm sending you all my love and blessings as you walk your wild sovereign soul path.

 
 
Lian Brook-Tyler
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